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ENIC

Like I said, what 'equivalent investment' denotes varies widely from fan to fan. I think those expecting 300-million pound investments from ENIC (back of the envelope calculation about how much matchday revenue the club's received over the last ten years) are probably on the outer end of the spectrum, even if 300 million quid is still easily within the reach of Joe Lewis' overall net worth (and about a third of the Sheikh's investment into City, all things considered). However, there is a fairly broad consensus emerging that the owners simply haven't spent enough to justify the absurdly high prices they charge for tickets, prices that ultimately only serve to make the club that much more profitable for ENIC when they sell up. The discontent over that 'net spend' table that I occasionally fish out and post on these forums is proof enough that said consensus is growing, even as stalwarts such as yourself still stick firmly to your own more conciliatory views regarding our owners.

I do not agree that there is a broad consensus that the owners haven't put enough in. I think that you are in danger of seeing discontent and projecting your views onto those who are unhappy.

I think that the majority of the discontent is with the churn of managers and poor quality of football that we have been served up over the last few years. If the Bale money had been spent better and we were competing for top four, I doubt that there would be Levy out banners in WHL.
 
In theory, then, neither Abramovich nor Mansour have given any money to their clubs. Their investment has also all been converted into equity.

And ENIC have even more reason for getting equity in return for their investment. Reason being that they do not own 100% of Spurs. In other words, if they just gave money to Spurs with nothing in return, they would effectively just be giving money to all the other shareholders.

All that matters, ultimately, is that as a consequence of ENIC's investment, Spurs have been able to spend £60m, that they wouldn't otherwise have been able to spend, on buying players and clearing debt.

Fair point, although I would quite like to see the extra percentage ENIC gained in the club for what cost each time. To see what sort of value we/they got.

As an aside (but related to this thread) I'm not TOO disappointed with the players we have missed out on over the years under ENIC. Some really were just too expensive (Moutinho/Hulk for example) and others we got beaten by a bigger (paying) boy. I was annoyed the window when we signed Saha and Nelsen as we missed an opportunity then to improve from a position of strength. However our problem hasn't really been signing players it has been signing them for the sake of it, as on too many occasions we have replaced and outgoing player with one coming in who is no better than the one we lost.
 
I understand, I think, why ENIC take the 'market forces' approach with regard to ticket prices. In one way it makes obvious sense, people will pay the money, so good, as business men charge what the market takes. HOWEVER, football fans aren't your typical customers. If Harrods charge high prices, then a lot of people, like me, don't go there. I prefer to go to cheaper places. But the people who do go to Harrods, don't, AFAIK, spend most/the whole of the time there moaning about the products on offer.

Unfortunately with our fanbase who pay the prices, there does seem to be sense of 'entitlement' with many of them, which encourages them to make the Lane a horrible place to go and devalues the customer experience for many other customers/potential customers. Worse it seems to adversely affect some of our staff (in this case the players, though I take the point that in other contexts they're seen as assets).

I accept this is is a very flawed analogy, but in a roundabout way I'm trying to say, that using using classic supply and demand analyses re a football club and its fans may not work so well as it does with many other businesses. Certainly in Spurs cases the overall product isn't meeting many 'customers' expectations these days.
 
You seriously, honestly believe that, mate? I'll take you at your word if you do, but just to be clear.....do you?

yes i do.

obviously there are better players than saha and nelsen, im not disputing that levy doesnt agree with that. but im sure he felt that those two players were the best options to go for given the information he had at the time based on "cost/reward".
 
Its been pretty hard for recent Spurs managers to sign big name players from their previous clubs. You know how like AVB wanted to bring in Moutinho and Hulk but failed, and how Poch wanted Schneiderlin and Rodriguez but both deals look almost impossible, well Levy missed a big trick by not appointing Frank de Boer because Spurs already have his best two players from Ajax in Vertonghen and Eriksen ))
 
There was no snag at all with Willian. He was at the training ground, having completed his medical and ready to sign on the dotted line when Spurs were gazumped at the eleventh hour by Abramovich making a deal with his fellow slavic gangster baron. By that point, it was a fait accompli. Nothing Levy could have done.

There was indeed a last minute snag with Moutinho. But not one of Levy's making. Again, the deal was agreed until Porto / third party interests moved the goalposts at the last minute.

As to Musacchio, there was no last minute snag for the simple reason that it never got that far. Third party interests (the player's former club, edible-nest swiftlet Plate, and his agent) refused to agree to any compromise with current club, Villarreal, leaving the latter no choice but to demand the full buyout value of €50m in exchange. Clearly, that meant that the deal was a non starter.

Edit: Hahahaha! For ****'s sake!! Now we have "edible-nest swiftlet" for "r i v e r"??? :lol:

We were gazumped all three times, were we not? Like I said, I think clubs have tried moving the goalposts at the last minute on a lot of our successful transfers as well: we just possessed enough appreciation for the players in question (as well as a fixed value of the player set by Levy that was presumably in excess of what was being demanded) to push the deals over the line. Here, we didn't, and gangster oil-barons don't come into it when you have 80 million sitting in the bank/a manager desperately requesting a real replacement for perhaps the finest deep-lying playmaker this club has had since Hoddle/ a new manager brought in amidst a general expectation that he would be given real backing and support, unlike the other schlubbs that came before him.

I do not agree that there is a broad consensus that the owners haven't put enough in. I think that you are in danger of seeing discontent and projecting your views onto those who are unhappy.

I think that the majority of the discontent is with the churn of managers and poor quality of football that we have been served up over the last few years. If the Bale money had been spent better and we were competing for top four, I doubt that there would be Levy out banners in WHL.

Head over to the 'Sugar Daddy' thread, then. 18 for (me included), and 27 against. Is that not a sufficient barometer to determine the percentage of fans who want to see owners who put more into the club? Roughly forty-percent of the respondents in favour of cash injections and everything else that comes with a sugar daddy, ENIC/Levy out posters at the Lane, grumbling over our rock-bottom net transfer spending...the signs are there, mate. Honestly, they are.
 
yes i do.

obviously there are better players than saha and nelsen, im not disputing that levy doesnt agree with that. but im sure he felt that those two players were the best options to go for given the information he had at the time based on "cost/reward".

So, did Levy also decide to go for them on the 1st of February (the closing hours of the window) because of the risk/reward analysis? Come on, mate, that's not a realistic view.
 
So, did Levy also decide to go for them on the 1st of February (the closing hours of the window) because of the risk/reward analysis? Come on, mate, that's not a realistic view.

We beat Saudi Sportswashing Machine after the window closed and before our slump - not sure what the date they were signed has to do with Neymars point?
 
We beat Saudi Sportswashing Machine after the window closed and before our slump - not sure what the date they were signed has to do with Neymars point?

Point being,if Levy did a considered risk/reward analysis and judiciously decided Nelsen and Saha were the best options, he wouldn't have waited until the first of February to sign them: they were on goddamned free transfers, there wasn't much money to be saved by doing his customary eleventh-hour cha-cha. It is far, far more likely that he decided very early on in the window that Harry could go to hell when it came to getting the few key players he was asking for, dithered for weeks trying to put him off and then eventually contemptuously flung Saha and Nelsen at him when his insistent pleading became too loud to ignore.
 
Or we explored the possibility of signing those players for the bulk of Jan or any other possibilty depending on which way someone wants to spin it.
 
Head over to the 'Sugar Daddy' thread, then. 18 for (me included), and 27 against. Is that not a sufficient barometer to determine the percentage of fans who want to see owners who put more into the club? Roughly forty-percent of the respondents in favour of cash injections and everything else that comes with a sugar daddy, ENIC/Levy out posters at the Lane, grumbling over our rock-bottom net transfer spending...the signs are there, mate. Honestly, they are.

That would be a minority rather than a consensus in support of change. Personally, I do not think that posters on this board are representative of the majority of fans. I think that by our very nature, registering on a message board and posting regularly, means that we are generally more opinionated and outspoken than most fans.
 
So, did Levy also decide to go for them on the 1st of February (the closing hours of the window) because of the risk/reward analysis? Come on, mate, that's not a realistic view.

thats exactly what he did. he weighed up all the factors and decided that saha and nelsen were the options he would go with. i genuinely dont see what was wrong with that then or now.
 
Point being,if Levy did a considered risk/reward analysis and judiciously decided Nelsen and Saha were the best options, he wouldn't have waited until the first of February to sign them: they were on goddamned free transfers, there wasn't much money to be saved by doing his customary eleventh-hour cha-cha. It is far, far more likely that he decided very early on in the window that Harry could go to hell when it came to getting the few key players he was asking for, dithered for weeks trying to put him off and then eventually contemptuously flung Saha and Nelsen at him when his insistent pleading became too loud to ignore.

whats the date at which he signed them got to do with anything?

he may not have got someone like nelsen had he brought in a cb for 15m earlier in the window. but he didnt/ wasnt able to. therefore, at the end of the window, he decided to bring nelsen in, at least in order to make up numbers. and he was free and probably wouldnt have commanded a big salary. makes perfect sense to go for someone like this considering he wasnt able to bring somone in earlier, and we needed a defender (for numbers).
 
That would be a minority rather than a consensus in support of change. Personally, I do not think that posters on this board are representative of the majority of fans. I think that by our very nature, registering on a message board and posting regularly, means that we are generally more opinionated and outspoken than most fans.

Good point. I'm not sure this forum represents how most Spurs fans feel on any particular issue.
 
That would be a minority rather than a consensus in support of change. Personally, I do not think that posters on this board are representative of the majority of fans. I think that by our very nature, registering on a message board and posting regularly, means that we are generally more opinionated and outspoken than most fans.

S'pose so, but would you also consider the commenters on the Levy-bashing articles that came out over the past week (Standard, I think, and also the Guardian if I recall correctly) to also be unrepresentative of fan opinion? The people who painted the 'Levy Out' banners that were so gracefully removed nanoseconds after they were hoisted? What would you consider to be an obtainable, reliable barometer of fan discontent? The reason I'm going on the reactions across message boards (here, my old haunt Vital Spurs, and TFC) is because I believe that they provide at least a partially accurate basis to begin gauging the reactions of the fanbase to Levy and ENIC over time. If we cannot rely on that, I don't think we can rely on anything concrete given that the boos that will inevitably ring out across the ground when we next lose at WHL (whether or not they're drowned out by cringe-inducingly obvious loud music being blared a millisecond after the final whistle) will be interpreted in different ways by different people.

whats the date at which he signed them got to do with anything?

he may not have got someone like nelsen had he brought in a cb for 15m earlier in the window. but he didnt/ wasnt able to. therefore, at the end of the window, he decided to bring nelsen in, at least in order to make up numbers. and he was free and probably wouldnt have commanded a big salary. makes perfect sense to go for someone like this considering he wasnt able to bring someone in earlier, and we needed a defender (for numbers).

So....wait, I'm not sure I can make full sense of your stance. I posited that Levy's last minute scraps that he haughtily tossed at Redknapp were symptomatic of a man who was loath to invest anything to secure a real shot at competing for the title and instead let his tight-fistedness overcome him at the last. You.....largely agreed with me, I guess (he turned down Harry's pleas to go out and spend to secure the primary targets we needed all through January)?

I'm sorry, I'm thoroughly confused about what you were trying to put across. My impression was that you disagreed with my characterization of Levy as being the reason we didn't spend anything at all that January. From my (almost certainly muddled) understanding, you agree with me on that, but want to point out that the decisions to go for the last minute free transfer wonders (Saha and Nelsen) were.....arrived at by Levy as rational choices made taking a range of factors into account, correct?

If that's the case, then absolutely, he made a logical decision: I have no intention of spending to secure a shot at glory, and would much prefer to go for these dirt-cheap free transfers because of a) their cheapness, and b) their free-ness. That was indeed rational and well thought out. My point, however, was that this behaviour is what will forever hold us back, not that this behaviour was inherently illogical.
 
In the context of history, we haven't be relegated but we haven't won a major honor since 1991. Its been mediocre.

In 1988/89 we signed Gazza, the best talent of his generation. We also signed Klindsmann in 1994. It's hard to compare the club now with then, we are much closer to the George Graham era. Low expectations.

We know some of the reasons for the decline but let's not carried away with praise for Levy. The bar has been set very low if it's time to lavish praise. I would say we are better now than when levy started but not by much and not by more or less than the cyclic nature we see in football.

We're not much better than when Levy took over? Hahahaha Hahahaha.....no sorry.....hahahahahahahahaha

You obviously didn't support us pre Levy as the very fact that a 7th place finish is seen as a disappointment shows how far he's taken us we used to battle relegation every ****ing season FFS - we qualified for the Champions league FFS - I saw my club Spurs playing Real Madrid in a ****ing competitive fixture- when I was watching Stephen Clrmence and Colin Calderwood try to save us from going down you will not realise what a wonderful feeling it was to just make it that one time!
 
We're not much better than when Levy took over? Hahahaha Hahahaha.....no sorry.....hahahahahahahahaha

You obviously didn't support us pre Levy as the very fact that a 7th place finish is seen as a disappointment shows how far he's taken us we used to battle relegation every ****ing season FFS - we qualified for the Champions league FFS - I saw my club Spurs playing Real Madrid in a ****ing competitive fixture- when I was watching Stephen Clrmence and Colin Calderwood try to save us from going down you will not realise what a wonderful feeling it was to just make it that one time!

Well said, I honestly don't know what planet some people are on sometimes!
 
So....wait, I'm not sure I can make full sense of your stance. I posited that Levy's last minute scraps that he haughtily tossed at Redknapp were symptomatic of a man who was loath to invest anything to secure a real shot at competing for the title and instead let his tight-fistedness overcome him at the last. You.....largely agreed with me, I guess (he turned down Harry's pleas to go out and spend to secure the primary targets we needed all through January)?

I'm sorry, I'm thoroughly confused about what you were trying to put across. My impression was that you disagreed with my characterization of Levy as being the reason we didn't spend anything at all that January. From my (almost certainly muddled) understanding, you agree with me on that, but want to point out that the decisions to go for the last minute free transfer wonders (Saha and Nelsen) were.....arrived at by Levy as rational choices made taking a range of factors into account, correct?

If that's the case, then absolutely, he made a logical decision: I have no intention of spending to secure a shot at glory, and would much prefer to go for these dirt-cheap free transfers because of a) their cheapness, and b) their free-ness. That was indeed rational and well thought out. My point, however, was that this behaviour is what will forever hold us back, not that this behaviour was inherently illogical.

i think our views only slightly differ, but in a key way.

my basic premise is that levy and co are making what they feel are the best (and most logical) decisions for the club. however, i think that it is precisely these "logical" decisions that will keep us progressing long term.

the kind of short-termism that i feel you are suggesting will only lead us ending up like leeds utd. we have to make very well thought out decisions over a number of seasons if we are to catch the team above us, arsenal. simply overspending to buy individual players that we feel will suddenly make us magically improve ten-fold will be suicidal for us imo.

at the end of the 11-12 season, we finished 20 points off the winners. do you really think that a world-class striker and a defender would have made up for a 20 point gap? individual players make far less of an impact than you probably think. for example: when we had modric, we were top 4 contenders. without him, we were still top 4 contenders. the same applies for bale. the same also applies at arsenal pre and post the sales of fabregas, rvp, henry, nasri etc. football is a team game and if we are to make any significant strides, our whole team needs to improve.

at the moment, we probably feel a striker would propel us to the next level. someone that can actually score consistently (as opposed to ade and soldado). however, if we were to have a 25 goal a season man up front, we would then be saying we need a top winger once we realise that andros townsend or lennon are no alexis sanchez. and think that is what is needed to overtake arsenal.

basically, had we had spent 15m on a cb instead of nelsen, i'm pretty sure that we would still have finished roughly where we eventually ended up, but have been 15m lighter.
 
i think our views only slightly differ, but in a key way.

my basic premise is that levy and co are making what they feel are the best (and most logical) decisions for the club. however, i think that it is precisely these "logical" decisions that will keep us progressing long term.

the kind of short-termism that i feel you are suggesting will only lead us ending up like leeds utd. we have to make very well thought out decisions over a number of seasons if we are to catch the team above us, arsenal. simply overspending to buy individual players that we feel will suddenly make us magically improve ten-fold will be suicidal for us imo.

at the end of the 11-12 season, we finished 20 points off the winners. do you really think that a world-class striker and a defender would have made up for a 20 point gap? individual players make far less of an impact than you probably think. for example: when we had modric, we were top 4 contenders. without him, we were still top 4 contenders. the same applies for bale. the same also applies at arsenal pre and post the sales of fabregas, rvp, henry, nasri etc. football is a team game and if we are to make any significant strides, our whole team needs to improve.

at the moment, we probably feel a striker would propel us to the next level. someone that can actually score consistently (as opposed to ade and soldado). however, if we were to have a 25 goal a season man up front, we would then be saying we need a top winger once we realise that andros townsend or lennon are no alexis sanchez. and think that is what is needed to overtake arsenal.

basically, had we had spent 15m on a cb instead of nelsen, i'm pretty sure that we would still have finished roughly where we eventually ended up, but have been 15m lighter.

Let's agree to disagree, then. I agree that the team needs to be good as a unit to seize and hold winning positions in the modern game, but teams are ultimately composed of indviduals, and (I'm a believer in this), no team is stronger than its weakest link. Beyond that, the morale effects of watching the likes of Tevez and Cahill come in that January would undoubtedly have given a boost that is hard to quantify, but would certainly have helped when it came to keeping our heads up as Harry was increasingly distracted by the England fiasco: conversely, the disappointment that must have been floating around after the arrival of Saha and Nelsen on free transfers must undoubtedly have influenced both Harry and the team in some way.

Beyond that, the raising of the tired 'Leeds' bogeyman again and your (probably sincerely held) belief that doing anything other than thrusting Saha, Nelsen, Fazio and Stambouli into our managers' faces when they ask for quality that our tight-fisted owners refuse to wholeheartedly pursue is illogical and an affront to our progression are two of your positions that I vehemently, violently disagree with, but also respect enough to avoid pressing the matter too much given my exertions on those topics across this forum.

Our owners have decided to run this club entirely on fan contributions, whether direct or indirect. The amount they've put into this club is roughly equivalent to just two years of matchday revenue, and putting in any more seems to a prospect that gives them cold sweats and nervously quivering jowls. Instead, they're content to rely on charging absolutely ridiculous prices far out of proportion to our standing as a club (second highest prices in the league, for a club that has made the CL once in its entire history and has won a solitary League Cup under the current ENIC regime) as a means of raising the income necessary to keep us in sixth place in terms of PL-wide revenue, while contributing next to nothing in relative terms and just waiting for us to become attractive enough for someone to buy them out for an outrageous price far out of keeping with what they paid to acquire this club, and with what they've put into this club.

That's just about acceptable in relatively even times, I suppose: this is what the modern game is like. But when we are within touching distance of glory.....to see it disappear because our wide-eyed owners quivered in their ermine robes when asked to take a risk and push out the boat to achieve what we were so close to perilously achieving is galling enough to raise the fans from their slumbers and bring forth some uncomfortable questions. Questions like 'what on earth are we paying these outrageous prices for, when the owners have made no equivalent investment into the club on their part?'. And 'will the club actually change in any way if they just weren't there?'.

The way they're acting, these owners have taken us as far as they can, and now they're slowly turning into parodies of themselves by hiring managers with visions for the club and then giving them bargain basement dirt-cheap buys instead of the players they specifically ask for to put this vision into practice. When the manager inevitably struggles to adapt these cheap replacements to the roles he had originally envisioned a better player filling, he's sacked, and the next poor schlubb is brought in, and the same damn thing happens again.

These are not good decisions being made by owners playing with other people's money. And given that decision-making is the most important thing they contribute to this club, it is only natural that a lot of questions are now arising about their ability to even do the one thing they can justify as being their contribution to the club.
 
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