Dele Alli

[Robspur12]

Kane has added more assists to his game this season than the previous 3 or 4 combined while still retaining his strike rate
- Aurier is a vastly improved player vs. anytime previous in his career
- Ndombele is a much better all round player than he was, fitter, stronger on the ball, able to play defensively, offensively. And btw, Reguilon has showed up that two year brick ..
- PEH looks a way better player than the one Southampton had
- Bale looks something like the player he last was 3 years ago
- Dele has probably just had his best game in a season

And yet we have lost 5 out of 6 league games including Brighton and West Ham and our chances of qualifying into next season’s CL through the league has vanished. This is not anti Jose it’s a fact! Go figure.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Well my 93 year old gran could work harder than Ndombele did last season. But he played alongside Sissoko in a midfield 2 under Poch and had to do defensive work then too. So no I don’t think the “defensive shift” he is putting in now is particular to Jose.




You’re not exactly impartial when it comes to Dele. He has always worked hard and played multiple positions in midfield. Do you not remember him playing in the defensive midfield position as well as in more offensive positions. I don’t disagree he did at times dip in and out of games but several of our players did that, Kane, Eriksen. I’ll wait and see if he benefits from “tough love” but I am not sure this kind of management has ever really improved a player. It’s usually the first step towards the player leaving.

Samuel eto would beg to disagree
I mean a player who won quite a lot in his time talks about the tough live changing his game.
The players who maybe didnt react are the ones who since his departure haven’t actually pulled up trees unless people were talking about Shaws recent renaissance. But it isn’t gonna Work for every player I’m sure.
And before anyone jumps in and starts with the salad/de bruyne exits... I’ll just add that they couldn’t get in the side he had ahead of players like peak willian, Pedro, hazard and even tail end lampard because those players were better than them at the time.

 

[Raziel]

And yet we have lost 5 out of 6 league games including Brighton and West Ham and our chances of qualifying into next season’s CL through the league has vanished. This is not anti Jose it’s a fact! Go figure.

Yes, seriously mate, are you reading my posts?

Results not good enough = yes
Managers fault = yes
Defence not good enough, especially for a manager who is supposed to know defence = yes
Jose's job is on the line = yes
If he loses the next three, he probably should/will be fired = yes

Has he improved certain players individually? = yes

Why is that so fudging hard? this is the entire board over the last few weeks, it seems for certain posters anything to do with Jose = bad, nothing can be good

Can we not have a conversation where somethings are brick, but somethings are ok? wtf?

 

[Robspur12]

I can get you Kane’s quotes saying he is playing the best football of his career under his current manager only a few months ago https://www.bt.com/sport/news/2020/december/i-m-in-the-best-form-of-my-life-harry-kane

That doesn’t prove anything. Other than Harry getting carried away saying encouraging things for the team. He was a double golden boot winner in the PL and in the World Cup so it’s not like he hasn’t been performing to a high level for many seasons . And as you were reminding me a few weeks ago that Harry’s development is not down to managers but only Harry himself ( I don’t completely agree btw but that’s another discussion)

Oh and as for the Tanguys game hasnt changed comments.., I saw him okay for Lyon. I also said he is the man we should sign to replace Demebele on this very site. What he has changed though is his passing which has improved immensely and he now has goals. More goals for Spurs than all his other clubs combined I think. Again I’m not saying their Jose things although arguably letting him attack more or even making him the instigator of the attacks is key to the measure of those improvements

Again that doesn’t necessarily prove anything. I can only comment from YouTube scout reports on which his passing and press resistance were beautifully showcased before we signed him. Which is probably why he was considered one of the most exciting talents in Europe and it was considered a coup to get him. I can’t comment on the goals but let’s see if he can become as consistent as Dele and Eriksen were, I sincerely hope for us he does.

Aurier has had one bad game since the Arsenal game and that was Leicester. IMO (and I was a huge critic) he has earned his place in the team and has been our best defender even when we had the best defence in the league. But as you says it’s about opinions

I agree he has improved this season. Partly though because we defended deeper.

 

[Raziel]

You’re not exactly impartial when it comes to Dele. He has always worked hard and played multiple positions in midfield. Do you not remember him playing in the defensive midfield position as well as in more offensive positions. I don’t disagree he did at times dip in and out of games but several of our players did that, Kane, Eriksen. I’ll wait and see if he benefits from “tough love” but I am not sure this kind of management has ever really improved a player. It’s usually the first step towards the player leaving.

To answer this

No, I'm not impartial with Dele, I find him extremely infuriating because of what I know he is capable of, not because I think he's brick.

Dele's idea of work hard was run around a bit, do some defensive cover. My idea of work hard for Dele is, impose yourself on the game, pull players out of position, create, score, manage the tempo, I've said this before (and maybe I just give up), it's something he very rarely does, even at his peak.

Let me make a comparison for you, Bale earlier in the season was running around, even scoring but not imposing himself on the game (look at last few games, see the difference), Dele most of the time is like that, runs around, does something outrageous but doesn't control the game, today? he pulled the strings, that is what he has to do (and that is mental application as much as physical)

 

[billyiddo]

Dele played a similar game in the group stages of the Europa League - in fact it was a much more dominating performance than today where he was drifting in/out of the game though still producing good moments - trouble is it doesn't suit your position on Jose to agree that Dele should/could have been used earlier in the season so you'll argue there's been a huge turnaround to justify it. There hasn't, the player and the manager between them have put asides theur differences would be my guess as to what's really happened here.

We know what Bale is capable of he hasn’t learned anything new or added more strings to his bow he is just fitter/more match fit - this comes through time more than anything, time on the training pitch and time in matches - whether or not this could have come sooner we don't know but if he's ready now to play a part this is a good thing.

Ndombele, borderline WC player when we signed him who dominated games in the CL v teams like Barca and City whilst at Lyon - i wanted him the year before we got him and it's arguable whether we've even see half of what has to offer potentially. He is fitter than he has been whilst at the club and Mourinho has obviously worked on that with him - but we don't need to over egg the pudding to make the point.

 

[Robspur12]

Yes, seriously mate, are you reading my posts?

Results not good enough = yes
Managers fault = yes
Defence not good enough, especially for a manager who is supposed to know defence = yes
Jose's job is on the line = yes
If he loses the next three, he probably should/will be fired = yes

Has he improved certain players individually? = yes

Why is that so fudging hard? this is the entire board over the last few weeks, it seems for certain posters anything to do with Jose = bad, nothing can be good

Can we not have a conversation where somethings are brick, but somethings are ok? wtf?

Because judging from the results, sadly, most things are brick. There is no sugar coating that. Jose has always been a results manager, that’s all that matters to him. He won’t give a brick whether players have improved or not. It won’t enhance his waning reputation if Ndombele is now fitter than last season or Aurier is making less mistakes. He will only care that he has so far failed to live up to expectations in terms of results. That’s part of the reason I like him.

 

[Raziel]

Dele played a similar game in the group stages of the Europa League - in fact it was a much more dominating performance than today where he was drifting in/out of the game though still producing good moments - trouble is it doesn't suit your position on Jose to agree that Dele should/could have been used earlier in the season so you'll argue there's been a huge turnaround to justify it. There hasn't, the player and the manager between them have put asides theur differences would be my guess as to what's really happened here.

We know what Bale is capable of he hasn’t learned anything new or added more strings to his bow he is just fitter/more match fit - this comes through time more than anything, time on the training pitch and time in matches - whether or not this could have come sooner we don't know but if he's ready now to play a part this is a good thing.

Ndombele, borderline WC player when we signed him who dominated games in the CL v teams like Barca and City whilst at Lyon - i wanted him the year before we got him and it's arguable whether we've even see half of what has to offer potentially. He is fitter than he has been whilst at the club and Mourinho has obviously worked on that with him - but we don't need to over egg the pudding to make the point.

So, just to be clear, your stance is "no player has improved under Jose"?

 

[billyiddo]

So, just to be clear, your stance is "no player has improved under Jose"?

This type of response sums you up mate, why don't try and not take everything so personal and discuss what I've posted rather than twist it in to something to row about?

I've explained what i think on those 3 players- if that's how you want to take it crack on

 

[Raziel]

Because judging from the results, sadly, most things are brick. There is no sugar coating that. Jose has always been a results manager, that’s all that matters to him. He won’t give a brick whether players have improved or not. It won’t enhance his waning reputation if Ndombele is now fitter than last season or Aurier is making less mistakes. He will only care that he has so far failed to live up to expectations in terms of results. That’s part of the reason I like him.

No, the results are brick, no question

What I do question is your logic, Jose is the most pragmatic manager ever. To make a team better, you need to make individuals better (via tactics/fitness/improvements/workrate/whatever)

Does he need to "care" about the player = no, but to suggest he is incapable of seeing/working to improving players (even for his own benefit) is a bit odd

 

[Raziel]

This type of response sums you up mate, why don't try and not take everything so personal and discuss what I've posted rather than twist it in to something to row about?

I've explained what i think on those 3 players- if that's how you want to take it crack on

Me asking you to clarify a statement is taking it personal?

How else would you interpret your response?

- Dele was at best earlier in the season, so no improvement
- Bale was just fitness (implied = any coach could have done this, actually your implication is Jose should have done it earlier. Ignore 3 years of Zidane being unable to do so)
- N'dombele, just fitness again, begrudging nod to Jose on that, but then add your but of "we haven't seen half of what he's capable of" so again, subtle dig.

 

[billyiddo]

How do you infer from commenting on the 3 players currently in discussion that i don't think any player at all has improved? Rather than just getting on and discussing what i consider to be fair and logical points you've just resorted to implying that my opinion is clouded by a bias.

 

[Raziel]

Sorry mate, if anyone can explain away Ndombele's improvement this season as "just fitness", yeah I think that's bias.

It seems for yourself and others, anything I'm saying is Jose bias, to the point where I specifically acknowledge something in a post (see how many times I've said the results aren't good) and I get asked right below it "what about the results", so clearly I lack some level of ability to articulate myself properly.

But, apologies mate, I said I wasn't going to do this with you again, that's on me, I assure you this was the last one ..

 

[billyiddo]

Good, i don't need to waste my time on people who's answer to anything they disagree with is to imply bias or agendas.

 

[Robspur12]

No, the results are brick, no question

What I do question is your logic, Jose is the most pragmatic manager ever. To make a team better, you need to make individuals better (via tactics/fitness/improvements/workrate/whatever)

Does he need to "care" about the player = no, but to suggest he is incapable of seeing/working to improving players (even for his own benefit) is a bit odd

I think you are missing my point mate. Even if I was to accept your claims that he has improved x players, to what end? You judge improvements in terms of results on the pitch and this season in the league he hasn’t made the team better. There have only been marginal improvements at best and they haven’t translated into meaningful results on the pitch. There are a whole section of posters on here who want to make things black and white. You criticise Jose, therefore you are against him and have always been against him and don’t appreciate all the great things he has done despite the poor results. The reality is he is a results manager, not one renowned for improving individual players but rather creating a team ethos that wins trophies and that is what I am judging him on.

 

[elltrev]

To answer this

No, I'm not impartial with Dele, I find him extremely infuriating because of what I know he is capable of, not because I think he's brick.

Dele's idea of work hard was run around a bit, do some defensive cover. My idea of work hard for Dele is, impose yourself on the game, pull players out of position, create, score, manage the tempo, I've said this before (and maybe I just give up), it's something he very rarely does, even at his peak.

Let me make a comparison for you, Bale earlier in the season was running around, even scoring but not imposing himself on the game (look at last few games, see the difference), Dele most of the time is like that, runs around, does something outrageous but doesn't control the game, today? he pulled the strings, that is what he has to do (and that is mental application as much as physical)

Funnily enough I didn’t think Dele particularly pulled the strings yesterday. I don’t think that’s a player he’ll ever be - I just don’t think he has the skill set for it. I think his strength is lots of intelligent forward movement to pull players out of position, and getting goals and assists. Which he did yesterday. (And which he was also doing again last season under Mourinho, even though you refuse to accept that )

Funnily enough I think you actually think he has more natural talent than I do!

 

[Finney Is Back]

You don't think Ndombele works harder now vs. before? I can't even argue that it's so out there. He's always been an extremely talented footballer but work hard, do a defensive shift? you think he could have played as the deep CM under Poch?

Re Dele, today is the 2nd time this season I've seen him put in a real shift (the first was Marine). This idea that Dele has always been some dedicated and disciplined player is just not my observation, at his best under Poch he would be ineffective for parts of games, then pop up and score and/or assist. And that's what's had to change, if he isn't in the game he has to score, if he doesn't then he isn't worth his place (and why players like Lucas/Bergwijn/Lamela have been keeping him out of the side). Today's Dele (not the one against West Ham or most sides this season) controlled the game, imposed himself, created, ran, scored. All that is his natural talent, all I think Jose has done is make sure he understands he needs to put it all out there or else someone with half his talent (but can be depended on) will take his place.

You might not think that is managing a player, but how else do you classify it?

Sorry but that is rubbish about Dele. Dele was an absolute pressing monster under Pochettino.... worked incredibly hard for the team. Yes Dele often popped up with goals and assists (it's what he does) but it is pure revisionism to say that's all he did.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Mates, really not trying to argue on this one

- Kane has added more assists to his game this season than the previous 3 or 4 combined while still retaining his strike rate
- Aurier is a vastly improved player vs. anytime previous in his career
- Ndombele is a much better all round player than he was, fitter, stronger on the ball, able to play defensively, offensively. And btw, Reguilon has showed up that two year brick ..
- PEH looks a way better player than the one Southampton had
- Bale looks something like the player he last was 3 years ago
- Dele has probably just had his best game in a season

This is separate from if the team has played brick, separate from if you think Jose's tactics are brick, separate from if you think he should be fired now.

To sit here and really say, nah, I don't see improvements in individuals? it's really just anything Jose bad at this point

Some of that is debateable.

Kane has been a brilliant player for several years, Jose likes him to come deeper to be the main (only?) component in developing our counter attack. Pochettino preferred us to play front foot football and have Kane in around around the box. Not sure Kane is an 'improved player', just one who is playing a different role. Remember that while Kane and Son are filling their boots, the rest of the team have anaemic goal returns.
Aurier has certainly improved. Personally I think Aurier has improved with each season he has been at the club. Though I was often fighting a losing battle on here in defending him. I think Jose can take credit here, though Aurier storming off at half-time in the game he was hooked concerns me.... I worry that Jose was making him the spacegoat for the Liverpool opener (When several other players played a bigger part in that goal IMO).
Ndombele has certainly improved a great deal. He has got fitter and also got used to the physicality of our league. He was a brilliant player in France though and we're now seeing the player we bought. Mourinho certainly deserves credit
PEH was a very good player at Southampton, it is why I was a big advocate of him signing. He has carried on here where he left off for them.
Bale hasn't even played a total of 90 decent minutes for us yet. Less than 90 good minutes for a World class player on £200k a week and you're trying to claim him as a Mourinho success?
Dele - a single good game against what?.... bottom quarter of the Championship (at best!) level opposition. To say Jose has improved him is ridiculous, he was one of the best players in the country under Pochettino. Mourinho's constant dropping of him hasn't done the player any favours in my opinion.

So in reality that's two players - Aurier and Ndombele (the latter of which actually looked good right away for Pochettino before getting injured).

Also what about....
Bergwijn.... Clearly got worse under Jose. He came in and looked good immediately but has become gradually less and less effective.
Dier and Sanchez.... No development at all and getting worse each week it seems.
Davies.... Has turned from a good backup for Rose to a barely passable second choice option
Winks.... Has regressed by a huge amount.
Doherty.... A good player at Wolves, very poor for us.

£15 million a year to improve Aurier and Ndombele and make a bunch of players worse? That's not great value really is it?

I'll qualify some of this by saying that I have actually been encouraged by some of our recent performances. It looks as though Jose may have abandoned the safety first, low block, counter game that we went into whenever we were ahead in games, even against the poorer PL teams. The next 3 games will be telling here IMO. If we continue to see the same attacking intent from the team then that will be great. I'm not taking too much away from last night's game though as that was typical FC Pig Farmer, Europa type opposition.

 

[parklane1]

Its like a kiddys playground in here at times

 

[StephenH]

Its like a kiddys playground in here at times

Its why I don't care for fans.