Change of sickness pay policy

[Gordinho]

See a doctor.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

So you're waffling about something you know little about then.

Honestly, I read some brick on this site at times, half the laws people are whining about are nothing to do with Europe or Human Rights legislation, they're existing laws that have been in place for many successive governments and the reason many HR people aren't able to sack poor employees is because they're poor employees too-incapable of following procedures correctly or less well up on employment law than their employers pay them to be. It's not that hard to sack poor performers if you're not one yourself.

Haven't you grasped yet that the reason you read about abuse of the HRA in the newspapers is because they're news? The exception to the rule. If every single immigrant or deportee was abusing the HRA on a daily basis it wouldn't be news. That doesn't stop the right wing press as portraying excess as normal or insecure people with little sense of self worth believing it though.

Also do you mind me asking why you bring immigration into a topic about sick pay in which neither i nor the post i was quoting from Crawley mentioned it? and why would someone who did read right wing press have little sense of worth? perhaps they might get and form their own opinons from their own lifes, with regards to whether this country needs mass immigration and whether it pays, i form my opinon on the 15 or so immigrants i know that have arrived here in the last 8 years all of who are on working tax credits and reductions for council tax.

Nice people and good workers but i do not believe it is finacially worthwhile as if we got the british unemployed back into work saving massive amounts on the welfare bill, the british unemployed may not want to work but if unemployment benefit was cut like it should be then they would have to go back to work saving the country a brick load of money. Im not following the right wing press here, im thinking about shane and alex who drink in my local and the thousands more like them around the country.

But of course you could brand anyone who disagrees with your view as being influenced by the right wing press rather then having any real world experince.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

See a doctor.

And a private one if possible because you'll be waiting for an eternity to see an NHS substandard quack!

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

See a doctor.

Exactly so i counter your arguments and all you can say is see a doctor, it seems clear to me that you wanted me to do a leedspurs and resort to wearing well i wont. I have said that i have some experince of employment law but not a lot as i have just started to employee people for the first time. It is rather sad how when i point out that the reason i vote Ukip is because they are for a relaxtion in employement laws and also green ones that people like me feel are a barrier to growth.

But all the left can do when they are beaten on an argument is resort to personal insults. It is very sad from a poster i used to respect.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

And a private one if possible because you'll be waiting for an eternity to see an NHS substandard quack!

No behave the NHS is perfect, we had 13 years of Labour and they made it great, it is not like under labour we had dead babies organs being ripped out or patients being put on a pathway to death because it was cheaper then keeping them alive, something which if it happpened under private health care the left would be going crazy about.

Of course the nasty tories trying to make things better and impose for targets, what utter gits the tories are.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

No behave the NHS is perfect, we had 13 years of Labour and they made it great, it is not like under labour we had dead babies organs being ripped out or patients being put on a pathway to death because it was cheaper then keeping them alive, something which if it happpened under private health care the left would be going crazy about.

Of course the nasty tories trying to make things better and impose for targets, what utter gits the tories are.

I can only comment about the NHS in London, but it's safe to say it's brick. I gave up on the NHS 5 years ago, after being misdiagnosed twice and wasting countless hours in waiting rooms and re-arranging my schedule due to cancelled appointments. Bit the bullet, went private and never looked back. I've even got private medical insurance for my employed staff because I think longer term it's cost effective rather than losing staff to the NHS black hole. Doesn't stop me having to pay Employers N.I. on their salaries though, which boils me no end. Talk about unjust!

 

[Hootnow]

No behave the NHS is perfect, we had 13 years of Labour and they made it great, it is not like under labour we had dead babies organs being ripped out or patients being put on a pathway to death because it was cheaper then keeping them alive, something which if it happpened under private health care the left would be going crazy about.

Of course the nasty tories trying to make things better and impose for targets, what utter gits the tories are.

Please tell me you're not talking about the Liverpool pathway here.

 

[Hootnow]

Meh, each system has its benefits and disadvantages. One of the patients I saw recently told me that a couple of her friends who had gone through the cancer treatment process via private health care had had their insurer try to tell them at various stages that they wouldn't cover it and that they'd have to pay for it.

As you can imagine, trying to argue with your insurer while being administered with some appalling treatments for months on end is not the most pleasant of things.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Please tell me you're not talking about the Liverpool pathway here.

Nope i was thinking about the pathway that put my friend and the first person that employed me Ken Fairway who has Parkisnons and who was in Brighton General 3 years ago and where the staff were refusing to give him food or water because he was at deaths door their words, his son who is scarier then me took his dad food and lucozade not even water funny enough and guess what he made a full recovery(not from the parkisnons obviously) but from the stroke and he is still with us.

Im not saying private is better then national health, the NHS were exceptional with me 18 months ago far better then BUPA and they have seen my dad all right to be fair.

I was trying to make the point how if some of what has happened in recent times had happened under the tories then they would have been given brick to eat all week for it but labour seem to have gotten away with it scott free.

But back to the point of the topic and i apologise for taking it off topic.

I was replying to crawleys post about how people are hiding behind acts and laws to allow them to get away with behaviour that deserves disimal, it is why i and others are switching to UKIP rightly or wrongly i think that relaxtion of some employment laws including the ones put forawrd on making it easier to dismiss bad employees would result in companies making more money and that is in my opinon a good thing.

Your one of the best left from the left hootnow and i like that you always debate the subject. I respect someone who disagrees with me as long as they do not resort to personal attacks and you never do.

I feel i have made my points very clear but now i shall do so in bold again for the slightly slower ones. Iwas responding to crawleys post about how people hide behind laws and rules to get away with behaviour that should result in the being sacked. I was responding only to that view and agreeing with it, i have personal life experince to back this up.

 

[Crawley]

So you're waffling about something you know little about then.

Honestly, I read some brick on this site at times, half the laws people are whining about are nothing to do with Europe or Human Rights legislation, they're existing laws that have been in place for many successive governments and the reason many HR people aren't able to sack poor employees is because they're poor employees too-incapable of following procedures correctly or less well up on employment law than their employers pay them to be. It's not that hard to sack poor performers if you're not one yourself.

Haven't you grasped yet that the reason you read about abuse of the HRA in the newspapers is because they're news? The exception to the rule. If every single immigrant or deportee was abusing the HRA on a daily basis it wouldn't be news. That doesn't stop the right wing press as portraying excess as normal or insecure people with little sense of self worth believing it though.

Gord, I'm sorry fella. You are plain wrong here.

I don't doubt that may be the case in some instances, but I have seen first hand the fear now portrayed by companies when faced with these situations.
I have seen my missus, and her colleagues, follow laid down procedures to the letter, then get told by "above" to let it go.

It's a nonsense.

 

[Gordinho]

Gord, I'm sorry fella. You are plain wrong here.

I don't doubt that may be the case in some instances, but I have seen first hand the fear now portrayed by companies when faced with these situations.
I have seen my missus, and her colleagues, follow laid down procedures to the letter, then get told by "above" to let it go.

It's a nonsense.

So why is it that weak, risk averse, incompetent managers make a decision but the HRA get's the blame? I get fed up with hearing about perfectly decent laws being maligned because people aren't competent to manage others within the framework of existing legislation, whether it be HR, their paymasters or professional victim card players.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

So why is it that weak, risk averse, incompetent managers make a decision but the HRA get's the blame? I get fed up with hearing about perfectly decent laws being maligned because people aren't competent to manage others within the framework of existing legislation, whether it be HR, their paymasters or professional victim card players.

Really? What do you do for a living exactly? And what employment laws do you regard as "decent"? And by what standard do you mean decent? Morally or actual?

 

[Crawley]

So why is it that weak, risk averse, incompetent managers make a decision but the HRA get's the blame? I get fed up with hearing about perfectly decent laws being maligned because people aren't competent to manage others within the framework of existing legislation, whether it be HR, their paymasters or professional victim card players.

It's not even the managers. It's the bloody lawyers saying "can#t do that".

Going to leave this now. Pointless argument. As stated, I know what I have seen first hand in aviation for the last 27 years.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

It's not even the managers. It's the bloody lawyers saying "can#t do that".

Going to leave this now. Pointless argument. As stated, I know what I have seen first hand in aviation for the last 27 years.

And the fact that employees can do cost free industrial tribunals. I have twice been taken to industrial tribunal. Both times I won and on both occasions I was apologised too and told that the cases should never have reached an industrial tribunal as there was no case to answer. The outcome? Sure I won, but I still had to pay out a fortune in legal fees and the claimant? Didn't have to pay a penny as the taxpayer paid their fees.

The net result is that I am over £10K down, and now I won't hire any PAYE staff again.

 

[Boonie]

My Wife works for a large multi national and they are taken to court by "disgruntled" employees on a regular basis, they usually settle out of court even when they know they are going to win just to save the legal costs as its cheaper. This is where the laws are flawed. If you lose the case you should be liable for at least a share of the total legal cost, imo.

 

[Gordinho]

It's not even the managers. It's the bloody lawyers saying "can#t do that".

Going to leave this now. Pointless argument. As stated, I know what I have seen first hand in aviation for the last 27 years.

So what has that got to do with the HRA?

 

[Gordinho]

Really? What do you do for a living exactly? And what employment laws do you regard as "decent"? And by what standard do you mean decent? Morally or actual?

Seriously? It would be far easier for you to tell me which ones you particularly disagree with.

And for the record, the industrial tribunal law stinks but I ask myself why it hasn't been repealed by the present government, my guess is that it's to protect the little man against a bullying boss who can afford legal costs that a lone employee can't. How to tighten it up to make it fairer for all sides involved has obviously defeated sharper brains than ours or I'm sure it would have been done by now.

I understand why as a small business you find a lot of legislation difficult but just because it's difficult for you it doesn't necessarily make it a bad law. I note the way you handle your staff contracts, is it legal? Yes, I'm sure it is, rather goes to underline my point that as you keep effective controls over what's going on in your business you won't get fudged over by the HRA or other acts people choose to drop unthinkingly into conversations.

 

[inkpenspur]

And for the record, the industrial tribunal law stinks but I ask myself why it hasn't been repealed by the present government, my guess is that it's to protect the little man against a bullying boss who can afford legal costs that a lone employee can't. How to tighten it up to make it fairer for all sides involved has obviously defeated sharper brains than ours or I'm sure it would have been done by now.

My guess is that it is not a priority, and the LibDems would veto any such plans to repeal it. We don't have a true Tory government at the moment, we have an ineffective coalition, and as such the choice of battles has to be carefully selected.

 

[Gordinho]

My guess is that it is not a priority, and the LibDems would veto any such plans to repeal it. We don't have a true Tory government at the moment, we have an ineffective coalition, and as such the choice of battles has to be carefully selected.

It's been law for a long, long time though, I'm fairly sure it was law even under Thatcher. I use that as a form of acid test, if Thatcher and successive Conservative governments didn't repeal it then it probably is very much needed check and balance against the little man being rode roughshod over, that's no consolation to Jumpers though who has been handed the bricky end of that particular stick.