Another shooting in Murica

[scaramanga]

It's easier to get hold of them when there's 300 million of them floating around the country.

In Britain you have to resort to breaking into the royal armouries to get a seventeenth century musket.

Do you think everyone who owns a gun would just hand them in or do you think many would keep them anyway? I'd imagine a decent proportion would sell them and try to make something on them too.

 

[r-u-s-x]

Do you think everyone who owns a gun would just hand them in or do you think many would keep them anyway? I'd imagine a decent proportion would sell them and try to make something on them too.

If they were registered to anyone you fine them, you criminalise the ownership of them so anyone who doesn't hand them in is arrested / jailed or finned (depending on social status...)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_buyback_program

 

[Kandi1977]

Do you think everyone who owns a gun would just hand them in or do you think many would keep them anyway? I'd imagine a decent proportion would sell them and try to make something on them too.

In other countries (and herein lies the major factor: where people are actually sane and reasonable intelligent), firearm return amnesties have been very successful.

 

[scaramanga]

It didn't long for the NRA supporting loons to come out, did it?

What's your next arguement? The only way to stop this is to give guns to more people? Its Texas, there are pretty more more guns there than anywhere else and only 26 people died. That worked out well.

I am sick of gun apologists minimising stupid white men killing people with guns. And then saying there is nothing we can do.

If this was done in the name of ISIS, there would new laws tomorrow.

I think you're barking up the wrong tree if you're looking for an NRA supporter to bite.

 

[scaramanga]

If they were registered to anyone you fine them, you criminalise the ownership of them so anyone who doesn't hand them in is arrested / jailed or finned (depending on social status...)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_buyback_program

In other countries (and herein lies the major factor: where people are actually sane and reasonable intelligent), firearm return amnesties have been very successful.

This sort of makes my point for me.

I don't believe that in reality this would work in the US. I think getting rid of privately owned guns (especially high rate of fire weapons) is an admirable aim. I think that getting it wrong could easily make the situation significantly worse.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Do you think everyone who owns a gun would just hand them in or do you think many would keep them anyway? I'd imagine a decent proportion would sell them and try to make something on them too.

Fair. I'm sure even here there's still a lot of WW2 'souvenirs' kicking around in lofts in middle England, which naughty granddads didn't hand in.

 

[JPBB]

There are plenty of loons on here whose views align with the NRA. They are simply too lacking in self awareness to admit it.

In particular:

America, the most powerful nation we have ever seen, is helpless to prevent this type of atrocity. (Sounds a bit like your argument Scara)

Yet every other functioning state seems to limit these atrocities to extremely rare events.

 

[Gutter Boy]

There are plenty of loons on here whose views align with the NRA. They are simply too lacking in self awareness to admit it.

In particular:

America, the most powerful nation we have ever seen, is helpless to prevent this type of atrocity. (Sounds a bit like your argument Scara)

Yet every other functioning state seems to limit these atrocities to extremely rare events.

Indeed. Power has got absolutely nothing to do with it. Power will only bring you a totalitarian state, where everyone suffers. Cohesive communities is the way you solve things like this - where oddballs get spotted as children and policed through their lives by peer pressure.

 

[JPBB]

I think are extraordinarily naive if you think that power (and money) has nothing to do with America's refusal to implement gun control.

 

[Gutter Boy]

I think are extraordinarily naive if you think that power (and money) has nothing to do with America's refusal to implement gun control.

No - I meant power is not the solution. The sentence you were quoting said even with it's power America is hopeless. My point is that more state power wouldn't make it any better; probably worse.

 

[JPBB]

Also slightly concerned about your wish to spot oddballs as children and police them.

Sounds a bit like a fascist state.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Also slightly concerned about your wish to spot oddballs as children and police them.

Sounds a bit like a fascist state.

That's just how society worked, from the birth of civilisation up until Reaganism/Thatcherism. Communities were interconnected and looked after their own members themselves

 

[scaramanga]

There are plenty of loons on here whose views align with the NRA. They are simply too lacking in self awareness to admit it.

In particular:

America, the most powerful nation we have ever seen, is helpless to prevent this type of atrocity. (Sounds a bit like your argument Scara)

Yet every other functioning state seems to limit these atrocities to extremely rare events.

I don't think that America is helpless, I just think that something as simplistic as saying "No more guns" is likely to end up in some kind of Cobra Effect. The argument that if you make guns illegal, only criminals will own guns is as simplistic as yours but just as valid.

In reality, there is hopefully a very good middle ground via which the aim can be achieved, but it's not an easy one and it could easily make things worse before they get better.

It's also worth pointing out that guns are the weapon of choice for these loons because they're available. I don't think a lack of guns is likely to completely stop someone who is unhinged and determined.

 

[r-u-s-x]

That's just how society worked, from the birth of civilisation up until Reaganism/Thatcherism. Communities were interconnected and looked after their own members themselves

would you restrict freedom of movement then? If I up sticks from Cali and move to Florida how will this work?

 

[the dza]

It didn't long for the NRA supporting loons to come out, did it?

What's your next arguement? The only way to stop this is to give guns to more people? Its Texas, there are pretty more more guns there than anywhere else and only 26 people died. That worked out well.

I am sick of gun apologists minimising stupid white men killing people with guns. And then saying there is nothing we can do.

If this was done in the name of ISIS, there would new laws tomorrow.

I'm about as far removed from the NRA as you can imagine, I'm not even a yank. I'm just correcting you in that there is a gun control law to stop this particular man obtaining a weapon, so a law in and of itself did nothing to prevent this tragedy.

Stricter gun control would help in general, but as you say, there are so many guns in a place like Texas already, the guy could just break the law and easily get a gun. In reality, I don't see how this is going to change in the near future.

 

[r-u-s-x]

It's also worth pointing out that guns are the weapon of choice for these loons because they're available. I don't think a lack of guns is likely to completely stop someone who is unhinged and determined.

Its a lot easier to commit mass murder with a gun than a knife - you are not stopping them but you are restricting their impact. For the School shootings etc I would like to think a couple of teachers would stop a kid with a machete than a semi automatic.

 

[the dza]

You'd think that stricter control would mean fewer new guns being bought and eventually limit the number of illegal second hand guns.

It's easier to get hold of them when there's 300 million of them floating around the country.

In Britain you have to resort to breaking into the royal armouries to get a seventeenth century musket.

Agree with both of you, but as Gutter Boy said, there are already 300 million of them in circulation, and millions of people with a real determination to hang on to theirs. Which is why this guy, who was not legally allowed to buy a gun, had a load of them anyway.

 

[r-u-s-x]

I'm about as far removed from the NRA as you can imagine, I'm not even a yank. I'm just correcting you in that there is a gun control law to stop this particular man obtaining a weapon, so a law in and of itself did nothing to prevent this tragedy.

Stricter gun control would help in general, but as you say, there are so many guns in a place like Texas already, the guy could just break the law and easily get a gun. In reality, I don't see how this is going to change in the near future.

have not seen have they found out where he got his gun from ? at a Gun show there is no background checks required so you can sell to him legally or is there a law I am unaware of to stop this?

 

[Gutter Boy]

would you restrict freedom of movement then? If I up sticks from Cali and move to Florida how will this work?

I'd have a range of measures that incentivised localism over globalisation, which would as a consequence begin to reforge communities. And yes I'm against freedom of movement on an international level - in the sense of economic migration.

If you moved areas you would become a stranger, and would have to make an effort to integrate into your new place. Instead of hiding in your box behind big walls.

 

[the dza]

have not seen have they found out where he got his gun from ? at a Gun show there is no background checks required so you can sell to him legally or is there a law I am unaware of to stop this?

I haven't seen the info about where he got his guns (he had multiple weapons apparently) from -- I am guessing, given where he was, he could probably borrow them from friends, assuming they didn't know he'd go mental with them.