Ange in or out?

[elyid]

I'm excited about the final and would love to finally win a trophy.

However, I hate to say it, but I don't think it's that big a deal that we've made it that far.
With no CL dropouts it will be much easier to progress to the later stages and think us and Man U are just the first benefactors of this. Expect to see English or Spanish winners almost every year as teams from either league should be the strongest.

So yes it would be great to win, but 2012 - 2016 we'd have probably got to the final if we only had to beat Frankfurt & Bodo Glimt...

 

[billyiddo]

Would you have been happy if we'd won the FA Cup in 2018? We beat AFC Wimbledon, Newport County (replay), Rochdale (replay) and Swansea before losing to Manchester United in the semi final.

How about in 2017? We beat Aston Villa (championship), Wycombe, Fulham and Millwall before losing to Chelsea in the semi final.

2012? We beat Cheltenham Town, Watford, Stevenage and Bolton before losing to Chelsea in the semi final.

2010? We beat Peterborough, Leeds (replay), Bolton (replay) and Fulham before losing to Portsmouth in the semi final.

Did the teams we beat in 2008 have any impact on your enjoyment of the League Cup? Middlesbrough, Blackpool, (old) Emirates Marketing Project, Arsenal and Chelsea.

In 1999 there were two huge wins against Liverpool and Man Utd, surrounded by Brenford, Northampton Town, Wimbledon and Leicester.

In 1991, Blackpool, Oxford, Portsmouth, Notts County, Arsenal and Forest -- only one good team in there! I guess it doesn't count either.

I think you get my point.

Winning a cup is obviously great and an achievement in it's own right but all your post does is highlight why winning a trophy is not a useful indicator for progress/future progress.

That's not to dismiss the achievement, it doesn't need to be sign of progress in order to be celebrated but if people want to make it out to be that, then dont be surprised if you get push back on that.

 

[harr1984]

I'm excited about the final and would love to finally win a trophy.

However, I hate to say it, but I don't think it's that big a deal that we've made it that far.
With no CL dropouts it will be much easier to progress to the later stages and think us and Man U are just the first benefactors of this. Expect to see English or Spanish winners almost every year as teams from either league should be the strongest.

So yes it would be great to win, but 2012 - 2016 we'd have probably got to the final if we only had to beat Frankfurt & Bodo Glimt...

Ah yes, we were quite the team in the Europa League under Poch weren't we? Only 'good' team we played were Dortmund, who we got knocked out to. And suffered defeats to the likes of Besiktas and Anderlecht. It is difficult to get to a European final at any time, claiming we 'only' had to beat x/y and z and would have been so much easier back in the day is nonsense:

 

[Ron Burgess]

Hold up. We created loads and loads of chances in each of our home games in the Europa League. AZ we won comfortably (bar some scares when they scored), we should have comfortably beaten Frankfurt, we could have beaten Bodø by more. It most certainly wasn't by playing "hoof ball."

The away games have been more pragmatic...as much by design as by the fact that they're tough away games in European competition.

Hoof ball was my colloquialism for a dramatic change in approach and principles that Ange had dismissed multiple times just to get over the line in a trophy. Something Ange said he didn't want to do.

The point I was making is these are not the principles Ange had laid out to build sustained success. Palace away, the games I mentioned, Vicario was rushing to get the ball back in play. Against Bodo, he got booked for time wasting in the 65 minute or whatever it was. Ange's principles have gone out of the window, and going on our league standing, performances and individual results, a Spurs coach has never deserved to be sacked more. Saudi Sportswashing Machine went down on 18 league defeats and 19 league defeats. We are on 20 and counting, it is a disgrace. People continue to blame Europe (wtf?) and injuries. Back in October when we shat the bed against Brighton they were all fit, Palace and Ipswich they were all fit. It is nonsense. He is a poor coach, and I haven't seen him improve our players. Many like Sarr have regressed. Look at Glasner's Palace coaching to compare. Another club in a cup final, but winning handsomely in the league.

tommysvr if you are, going by your pro post, justifying Ange staying somehow, you really are a glutton for punishment. Sir Alex didn't have United bottom 3 when he won the FA cup. Klopp was nowhere near a relegation scrap when he was building Liverpool up. Spurs fans still clutching to Ange are self-deluding. You would see us relegated and really destroyed such will be the financial consequences.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Winning a cup is obviously great and an achievement in it's own right but all your post does is highlight why winning a trophy is not a useful indicator for progress/future progress.

That's not to dismiss the achievement, it doesn't need to be sign of progress in order to be celebrated but if people want to make it out to be that, then dont be surprised if you get push back on that.

We're going to be one league place better than Wigan's famous 2013 scenario.

 

[tommysvr]

Winning a cup is obviously great and an achievement in it's own right but all your post does is highlight why winning a trophy is not a useful indicator for progress/future progress.

That's not to dismiss the achievement, it doesn't need to be sign of progress in order to be celebrated but if people want to make it out to be that, then dont be surprised if you get push back on that.

Right! Exactly! So just enjoy it for the moment that it is! It could mean nothing more than "hey remember that incredible night we all had!" It doesn't mean "Hey remember when we won that trophy but played a bunch of brick teams along the way so it doesn't really matter?"

It just seems like people are trying to put a downer on the whole thing, likely as a safety net for themselves. They don't want to contemplate the very real prospect that the one to break this trophy drought that we've been reminded of every 5 mins for the past 8 years or so is someone they loathe so much.

 

[tommysvr]

Hoof ball was my colloquialism for a dramatic change in approach and principles that Ange had dismissed multiple times just to get over the line in a trophy. Something Ange said he didn't want to do.

The point I was making is these are not the principles Ange had laid out to build sustained success. Palace away, the games I mentioned, Vicario was rushing to get the ball back in play. Against Bodo, he got booked for time wasting in the 65 minute or whatever it was. Ange's principles have gone out of the window, and going on our league standing, performances and individual results, a Spurs coach has never deserved to be sacked more. Saudi Sportswashing Machine went down on 18 league defeats and 19 league defeats. We are on 20 and counting, it is a disgrace. People continue to blame Europe (wtf?) and injuries. Back in October when we shat the bed against Brighton they were all fit, Palace and Ipswich they were all fit. It is nonsense. He is a poor coach, and I haven't seen him improve our players. Many like Sarr have regressed. Look at Glasner's Palace coaching to compare. Another club in a cup final, but winning handsomely in the league.

tommysvr if you are, going by your pro post, justifying Ange staying somehow, you really are a glutton for punishment. Sir Alex didn't have United bottom 3 when he won the FA cup. Klopp was nowhere near a relegation scrap when he was building Liverpool up. Spurs fans still clutching to Ange are self-deluding. You would see us relegated and really destroyed such will be the financial consequences.

And I bet if he didn't change things and we lost, you'd be here to post that.
If he did change things and we lost, you'd post that.

I don't care about other teams. I care about Tottenham Hotspur winning things. I want to see us win a trophy. The league has been atrocious and Ange is responsible for that...but I don't care right now, because we have a Europa League Final, and a very real chance to win a big trophy that we've all been so desperate to win.

 

[veryoldspur]

Would you have been happy if we'd won the FA Cup in 2018? We beat AFC Wimbledon, Newport County (replay), Rochdale (replay) and Swansea before losing to Manchester United in the semi final.

How about in 2017? We beat Aston Villa (championship), Wycombe, Fulham and Millwall before losing to Chelsea in the semi final.

2012? We beat Cheltenham Town, Watford, Stevenage and Bolton before losing to Chelsea in the semi final.

2010? We beat Peterborough, Leeds (replay), Bolton (replay) and Fulham before losing to Portsmouth in the semi final.

Did the teams we beat in 2008 have any impact on your enjoyment of the League Cup? Middlesbrough, Blackpool, (old) Emirates Marketing Project, Arsenal and Chelsea.

In 1999 there were two huge wins against Liverpool and Man Utd, surrounded by Brenford, Northampton Town, Wimbledon and Leicester.

In 1991, Blackpool, Oxford, Portsmouth, Notts County, Arsenal and Forest -- only one good team in there! I guess it doesn't count either.

I think you get my point.

No I don't get the point. If we win the EL (which I don't think we will) I will enjoy the win as much as anyone else. This isn't about enjoyment, it's about reality. The simple fact is that we have had an easy run, and we shouldn't kid ourselves Ange has done a good job, because he hasn't, and that's what this thread is about!

 

[Mcfee]

Ah yes, we were quite the team in the Europa League under Poch weren't we? Only 'good' team we played were Dortmund, who we got knocked out to. And suffered defeats to the likes of Besiktas and Anderlecht. It is difficult to get to a European final at any time, claiming we 'only' had to beat x/y and z and would have been so much easier back in the day is nonsense:

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Losing to Gent in 2017 was disgraceful really, considering we got 86 points in the league that year.

 

[tommysvr]

No I don't get the point. If we win the EL (which I don't think we will) I will enjoy the win as much as anyone else. This isn't about enjoyment, it's about reality. The simple fact is that we have had an easy run, and we shouldn't kid ourselves Ange has done a good job, because he hasn't, and that's what this thread is about!

If Ange wins our first trophy in 17 years, our first European trophy in 41 years, he will have done an incredible job! He’ll forever be on the (sadly too short) list of managers who won a major trophy for the club — the league form has literally nothing to do with it.

If you’d rather finish 4th or 5th then that’s fine…I’ve watched us do that and those seasons will mean far less to me than this season, should we manage to win it.

 

[DubSpur]

No I don't get the point. If we win the EL (which I don't think we will) I will enjoy the win as much as anyone else. This isn't about enjoyment, it's about reality. The simple fact is that we have had an easy run, and we shouldn't kid ourselves Ange has done a good job, because he hasn't, and that's what this thread is about!

It isn't about enjoyment? What's the point of football then?

 

[billyiddo]

Right! Exactly! So just enjoy it for the moment that it is! It could mean nothing more than "hey remember that incredible night we all had!" It doesn't mean "Hey remember when we won that trophy but played a bunch of brick teams along the way so it doesn't really matter?"

It just seems like people are trying to put a downer on the whole thing, likely as a safety net for themselves. They don't want to contemplate the very real prospect that the one to break this trophy drought that we've been reminded of every 5 mins for the past 8 years or so is someone they loathe so much.

I agree entirely that it should be looked at in isolation - winning the Europa will be a great thing for the club in of itself.

I guess the debate rages on when it's then argued off that back of a potential cup win that it should trump our league form wrt how we move forward with the decisions that need to be made. I'm trying not to dwell on that as my mind is made up but sometimes i can't help but respond!

 

[Bedfordspurs]

No I don't get the point. If we win the EL (which I don't think we will) I will enjoy the win as much as anyone else. This isn't about enjoyment, it's about reality. The simple fact is that we have had an easy run, and we shouldn't kid ourselves Ange has done a good job, because he hasn't, and that's what this thread is about!

You didn’t think we would win any games though
Your basically an anti fan right now

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Spurs fan complaining about an easy run when you literally just have to beat what’s in front of you
When people wonder what is wrong with the club that’s a great example
The cup means less because the teams we played weren’t as good as us
WTF

 

[elyid]

Ah yes, we were quite the team in the Europa League under Poch weren't we? Only 'good' team we played were Dortmund, who we got knocked out to. And suffered defeats to the likes of Besiktas and Anderlecht. It is difficult to get to a European final at any time, claiming we 'only' had to beat x/y and z and would have been so much easier back in the day is nonsense:

View attachment 19549

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Fair point. However I don’t think we 100% made it a priority as we knew we’d have the “big guns” to play in the latter rounds. (Who we’d assume we would lose to)

When you look at all the teams in the competition and realise you’re in the top 2 or 3 is a very different motivator.

Let’s see, but I’d bet PL teams win it often in the next few years.

 

[elyid]

Spurs fan complaining about an easy run when you literally just have to beat what’s in front of you
When people wonder what is wrong with the club that’s a great example
The cup means less because the teams we played weren’t as good as us
WTF

My point is it’s easier now than it’s even been due to no CL dropouts. That’s just a fact.

Not complaining. But Ange is playing in a competition format (easier) we’ve never been in before.

I’m very excited, but him acting like he’s better than previous managers in this regard is not strictly true.

 

[elyid]

No I don't get the point. If we win the EL (which I don't think we will) I will enjoy the win as much as anyone else. This isn't about enjoyment, it's about reality. The simple fact is that we have had an easy run, and we shouldn't kid ourselves Ange has done a good job, because he hasn't, and that's what this thread is about!

My point too. It’s not so much the easy run, it’s that there were few good teams in it at the start.

Winning the FA Cup with an easy run is different as every team still started the completion.

100% will go crazy if we win, but annoys me Ange seems to think it makes up for such a terrible league performance. It doesn’t. Even though is winning a trophy would be amazing, getting to the CL final was a bigger footballing achievement.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

My point is it’s easier now than it’s even been due to no CL dropouts. That’s just a fact.

Not complaining. But Ange is playing in a competition format (easier) we’ve never been in before.

I’m very excited, but him acting like he’s better than previous managers in this regard is not strictly true.

It really doesn’t matter because we can literally only beat who is in it (or not)
It’s daft to churn out its easier because therefore it’s easier for EVERY team. Why didn’t the 3rd best team in Germany or the 4th best in Spain do better?
This cup, when I was growing up was the hardest to win because of who was in it (normally teams in the up from the previous season)

 

[Bedfordspurs]

My point too. It’s not so much the easy run, it’s that there were few good teams in it at the start.

Winning the FA Cup with an easy run is different as every team still started the completion.

100% will go crazy if we win, but annoys me Ange seems to think it makes up for such a terrible league performance. It doesn’t.

Has Ange said that?
I may have missed it if so

 

[harr1984]

My point too. It’s not so much the easy run, it’s that there were few good teams in it at the start.

Winning the FA Cup with an easy run is different as every team still started the completion.

100% will go crazy if we win, but annoys me Ange seems to think it makes up for such a terrible league performance. It doesn’t. Even though is winning a trophy would be amazing, getting to the CL final was a bigger footballing achievement.

Lol 'easy run'. Before the Frankfurt tie what were people saying? We were going to get beat. Then when we drew at home and we were going to get spanked at their place apparently.

Before the Bode game what were people saying? We needed to be 3 or 4 goals up in our home leg to have a chance as they are really good at home (having just beat the team who finished top of the EL group stage)? Now we beat them with two very good performances they were all of a sudden no hopers.

Ange is right, Spurs does funny things to people including their own fans....