Ange in or out?

[Raziel]

Out of interest, what was Poch's average possession as a Saints manager? Not sure where you're getting these stats from, but isn't the B'mouth vs Saints comparison the right one. Somewhere in between the above numbers would be my guess, probably splitting that gap in half.

stat is isolation is odd, Saints this season have >50% possession and are arguably one of the worse sides to play in EPL history.

But just to show @thfcsteff I'm nice to his guy, it was actually 59% way back then, so was a leading indicator of his potential

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Different managers, very different styles, completely agree

He's more counter attack vs. Poch possession, he uses wingers more than Poch (FB), I'd say that his system is more decisive in final 3rd, can be a bit more counter/direct but it does create goals from probably less chances than classic Poch.

That said, he could very well be playing within the limitations of his players (i.e. are they playing that way because it suits the system or the players at disposal?), something Ange doesn't do very well.

Pochs Southampton team had wingers in the same way
He had mane… that’s now Semenyo
He had a target man… Rodriguez or lambert or the 2 lads Bournemouth play
Solid CMs
Luke shaw at left back which is Kirkez
experienced but excentfic keeper… boruc for kepa
Under rated pro .., llallana for Tavernier
Under appreciated sites centre back that then went to Liverpool - lovren for Huijsen
Played 4-2-3-1
I could go on
Pochs Southampton wasnt a Poseidon side against the top teams

 

[Muttley]

stat is isolation is odd, Saints this season have >50% possession and are arguably one of the worse sides to play in EPL history.

But just to show @thfcsteff I'm nice to his guy, it was actually 59% way back then, so was a leading indicator of his potential

The Iraola debate is one of the best ones. I've not watched much football this season so have had to trust others on it.

On the podcast Milo was talking about finding a manager that will play good possession football if Ange falls on his sword. So it seems that Russell Martin would be way ahead of Iraola on that single consideration. We should also look forward to England under Tuchel playing high possession football based on what I read on google.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

The Iraola debate is one of the best ones. I've not watched much football this season so have had to trust others on it.

On the podcast Milo was talking about finding a manager that will play good possession football if Ange falls on his sword. So it seems that Russell Martin would be way ahead of Iraola on that single consideration. We should also look forward to England under Tuchel playing high possession football based on what I read on google.

Possession football needs intelligent players
We dint have many of those

 

[Raziel]

https://www.football.london/tottenham-hotspur-fc/news/tottenham-eyeing-up-ange-postecoglou-31165842

Tottenham Hotspur are reportedly eyeing a move for Inter Milan manager Simone Inzaghi if they choose to sack Ange Postecoglou.

According to AI ->
Simone Inzaghi is known for his tactical acumen and adaptable management style, which has brought success to teams like Lazio and Inter Milan. His preferred formation is the 3-5-2, emphasizing fluidity and dynamic movement. Here's a breakdown of his approach:

• Build-Up Play: Inzaghi's teams focus on building through the thirds with short passes, but they are not afraid to play direct when spaces open up. His back-three system often sees center-backs stepping into midfield to create numerical advantages2.
• Offensive Strategy: Wing-backs play a crucial role, pushing high up the pitch to stretch the opposition and deliver crosses. His strikers work in tandem, with one dropping deep to create space for the other3.
• Defensive Solidity: Inzaghi's teams maintain compactness and defensive discipline, making them difficult to break down. This balance between attack and defense is a hallmark of his coaching.
• Adaptability: He adjusts his tactics based on the opposition, showcasing versatility in both possession-based and counter-attacking styles.

Inzaghi's leadership has earned him accolades, including domestic titles and deep runs in European competitions.

 

[Muttley]

The other thing I would add is that is Poch's possession meant that every time we had a chance to cross it we retained possession instead then give me Iraola every day. Wasn't it a breath of fresh air to see a full-back taking the very first opportunity to get the ball in the box? Drives me crazy when Porro passes up so many opportunities to feed Solanke in the air or ground in the box.

 

[thfcsteff]

So a serious question

- Is a long term plan linked to long term manager?
- There seems to be a perception that long term manager is the only route to success, I'm not sure I agree, at the top level, the often highlighted piece is Arteta (this point in his 5th season he has less points than Unai had in his first) and that is starting to look like a failure, will be 6 years, more than 600M spent and they haven't pushed on. Slot is likely to win more than one trophy in first year, Jose, Conte, Ange all had better first seasons with us than second ..

I think you talk about frustration (and my beef with club right now is "why is Ange still here"), but think we are mixing up eras/managers/finances to come to odd conclusions

- The great rebuild/refresh is pretty much done (it's taken 5 years and crossed all those managers)
- We have spent a lot money, and most of it very well, squad is well poised for future, with a few smart additions
- Biggest issue is avoiding managers who won't work with youth and/or club signings (that statement about Spence really hasn't aged well)

Iriola is obvious (and hopefully it is to club as well), but lets be clear

- Vic, Kinsky, Porro, Spence, Romero, Danso, Dragusin, VDV, Gray, Udogie, Bentancur, Sarr, Maddison, Bergvall, Wilson, Son, Johnson, Solanke. 18 players with 4? over 27 (I'm assuming Forseter, Timo, Bissouma, Richi are out in summer)
- Moore, Donley, Vuskovich, Yang, Phillips, Keeley all to be looked at, incorporated into side over next year or two.
- DM, LB/LCB, RW and backup CF are obvious areas to add/upgrade
- There will be money in summer

Any decent manager willing to play a front foot style based on 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1 or even 3-5-2 could make this team function to top 6 level.

Look at what Moyes is doing at Everton, they are one point behind us and United after being dead and buried .. and he's just an ok manager.

It's a great question.
Romantics will say yes. But practically, it probably isn't linked to any one manager unless said-manager originted the philosophy the club is adhering to.

It increasingly feels that An

Out of interest, what was Poch's average possession as a Saints manager? Not sure where you're getting these stats from, but isn't the B'mouth vs Saints comparison the right one. Somewhere in between the above numbers would be my guess, probably splitting that gap in half.

With Soton it was 58.6%, so very close to the same. Now that's consistency!!!!

 

[thfcsteff]

The Iraola debate is one of the best ones. I've not watched much football this season so have had to trust others on it.

On the podcast Milo was talking about finding a manager that will play good possession football if Ange falls on his sword. So it seems that Russell Martin would be way ahead of Iraola on that single consideration. We should also look forward to England under Tuchel playing high possession football based on what I read on google.

I think what Milo was saying is we should be looking to a manager who will continue with the philosophy the club has adopted rather than jack it in and do what we did when we f-ucked up sacking Poch and go the opposite way!

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

We don't need a manager that plays possession football. We need a manager that plays progressive football. There's a difference. Fergie's Man Utd were a team that relied on the counter. Not sitting back and counter, but a set traps high up the pitch and counter. Redknapp's Spurs were not really a possession team either but were very exciting to watch.

 

[thfcsteff]

We need a manager who believes in the philosophy the club has built itself to execute for the last 2 seasons.
We do not need to flip like we did when we blew it and sacked Poch.

 

[Muttley]

I think what Milo was saying is we should be looking to a manager who will continue with the philosophy the club has adopted rather than jack it in and do what we did when we f-ucked up sacking Poch and go the opposite way!

Yeah, but it was in the context of Iraola not being the right fit if my memory served me right. You seemed to have supported that with some stats of possession vs counter.

The remaining question is whether Iraola can increase those possession stats by 10% and adapt once he has access to our squad. That's the big unknown.

After all, Big Sam did always say that if he had the Real Madrid squad he'd play the Real Madrid way

 

[Robspur12]

Like Bissouma isn't capable of holding his position and covering his full backs. It's the same as the full backs being dug out for being out of position. It's the design of the tactics that are leaving areas of the pitch exposed, doesn't matter who the player is.

He showed he could do it to great effect vs Liverpool when we beat them in the cup. We played a very different system that night. But clearly not one which Ange prefers.

 

[RigorMortis]

Just looking at Ange’s record as a manager, outside from his stint as Aussie national manager ( U21 and senior), he doesn’t hang around anywhere for long.
If we leave aside Celtic who were relatively dominant before and after Ange, is there anything to suggest he’s a man for a long term rebuild, given his average stint in club management is just a few years?

 

[Craig_J]

We need a manager who believes in the philosophy the club has built itself to execute for the last 2 seasons.
We do not need to flip like we did when we blew it and sacked Poch.

I’m not disagreeing with you. To be honest I would prefer a second season with Ange in charge as opposed to if you (hypothetically of course) offered me back Conte or Jose. Even if we might be a few positions higher in the league as a result

But I would say Poch did have a plan B. For a while he actually used to play 3 at the back from time to time. He was prepared to step away from the default and mix it up when he felt the need to.

With Ange I don’t think there is any desire at all to change things. As he has expressed so himself I think it is OK to say that

He also does not seem to know any other way to play or approach matches

I think we need someone who has more than 1 trick up their sleeve.

 

[Lilbaz]

We don't need a manager that plays possession football. We need a manager that plays progressive football. There's a difference. Fergie's Man Utd were a team that relied on the counter. Not sitting back and counter, but a set traps high up the pitch and counter. Redknapp's Spurs were not really a possession team either but were very exciting to watch.

Yep. That was the most exciting i've seen us play. Loved it.
Avb was possession. Hated it.

 

[thfcsteff]

Yeah, but it was in the context of Iraola not being the right fit if my memory served me right. You seemed to have supported that with some stats of possession vs counter.

The remaining question is whether Iraola can increase those possession stats by 10% and adapt once he has access to our squad. That's the big unknown.

After all, Big Sam did always say that if he had the Real Madrid squad he'd play the Real Madrid way

I don't think Iraola would fare any better here, correct. I presented those stats to support my personal view that he is not the 'new Poch'...

 

[thfcsteff]

I’m not disagreeing with you. To be honest I would prefer a second season with Ange in charge as opposed to if you (hypothetically of course) offered me back Conte or Jose. Even if we might be a few positions higher in the league as a result

But I would say Poch did have a plan B. For a while he actually used to play 3 at the back from time to time. He was prepared to step away from the default and mix it up when he felt the need to.

With Ange I don’t think there is any desire at all to change things. As he has expressed so himself I think it is OK to say that

He also does not seem to know any other way to play or approach matches

I think we need someone who has more than 1 trick up their sleeve.

Indeed, Poch was far more tactically flexible than given credit for...

 

[Bishop]

I don't think Iraola would fare any better here, correct. I presented those stats to support my personal view that he is not the 'new Poch'...

He doesn't need to play the same system as Poch to have a similar effect. People see him as the new Poch due to all of the circumstantial similarities.

I personally love heavy possession football done right, it's my favourite way of playing but you need to have all the components to do it effectively. Even though it's my favourite philosophy we do need to get away from the idea that it is the "right" way to play. The right way is the one that suits the players you have available, even if that is a say 3 at the back (which I hate).

I think flexibility is just as important to successful tenure as a defined philosophy is if not more so. What I like seeing is a coach who has a set way of playing but within that has ability to think on the hop and adjust when things aren't going to plan. Iraola appears to be that sort of coach but I really haven't paid any great deal of attention to him to really say. On the surface level I like that he appears to be getting more out of his players than expected, whereas we are the opposite.

 

[veryoldspur]

And what players we need to try and move on just as importantly. Some of these guys are just abysmal footballers.

That proves my point. Ange needs to go sooner rather than later. Because of the very bad coaching we don't really know how good or bad some of them are. If a new manager is given half a dozen games to work with them he will have a better idea come the summer window. If Levy leaves it to the end of the season it may mean us shipping out players with promise.

 

[veryoldspur]

Definately. But Johnson, Biss and Porro to name 3 can all go. Son is done sadly. Id also look to sell Romero.

Those three players were all excellent at their previous clubs, which tells us something, doesn't it? Anyway, what club wants to sell their highest scorer?