Ange in or out?

[Bedfordspurs]

I mention him because he was the pick last week after the Chelsea match. No doubt there’s a different pick every other day. Comes with the territory for those who are constantly wanting to change the manager.

I dont think there is a pick
People just want rid and a new guy to see
It’s daft

 

[Raziel]

Potter is IMO a great coach. Tactically adept and versatile to get what he can out of the players
Chelsea were and possibly still are a basket case
Potter did turn down even talking with us in the past
If people are turning down the potential of someone like Iraola then Im stumped as to who people think would work

Not sure I agree re Iraola

Ange may not have managed in the PL, but he has managed sides in the CL & WC, he has won league titles, the narrative that he had no real competitive history pre Spurs is a bit OTT

In my opinion, any alternative needs to have some combination of - played in Europe cups (just the juggle of league/domestic and european cups), top 5 league experience, experience in a club with expectations (again, Ange at Celtic), and a personality that isn't guaranteed to implode (De Zerbi). Additionally to avoid a total squad refresh, tactically similar to Ange (or able to reuse this squad)

 

[Muttley]

Not sure I agree re Iraola

Ange may not have managed in the PL, but he has managed sides in the CL & WC, he has won league titles, the narrative that he had no real competitive history pre Spurs is a bit OTT

In my opinion, any alternative needs to have some combination of - played in Europe cups (just the juggle of league/domestic and european cups), top 5 league experience, experience in a club with expectations (again, Ange at Celtic), and a personality that isn't guaranteed to implode (De Zerbi). Additionally to avoid a total squad refresh, tactically similar to Ange (or able to reuse this squad)

I'm also a fan of Potter, and still think he should have been either Poch's or Jose's replacement. Where I have my doubts is that he didn't seem to want Spurs 1st team coach role because he had a much larger club role at Brighton. They were a seamless leadership team from the CEO down the Potter and seemed to just get stuck into the work together without worrying about job descriptions. I respected Potter for not wanting a diminished role at Spurs until he went and took exactly the same thing at Chelsea. Left me confused.

What Potter had at Brighton is perhaps what Iraola has at Bournemouth. They clearly have cohesion in the leadership layers and, if we believe we also have that now, then we could consider him. There's also a curiosity about Chris Davies if we are looking for alternative approaches to a big name.

Ange seems more about being a philosopher, life coach and THFC culture change agent. He seems less about "tracksuit and training ground" and I'm not sure I'm comfortable with that.

 

[Raziel]

I'm also a fan of Potter, and still think he should have been either Poch's or Jose's replacement. Where I have my doubts is that he didn't seem to want Spurs 1st team coach role because he had a much larger club role at Brighton. They were a seamless leadership team from the CEO down the Potter and seemed to just get stuck into the work together without worrying about job descriptions. I respected Potter for not wanting a diminished role at Spurs until he went and took exactly the same thing at Chelsea. Left me confused.

What Potter had at Brighton is perhaps what Iraola has at Bournemouth. They clearly have cohesion in the leadership layers and, if we believe we also have that now, then we could consider him. There's also a curiosity about Chris Davies if we are looking for alternative approaches to a big name.

Ange seems more about being a philosopher, life coach and THFC culture change agent. He seems less about "tracksuit and training ground" and I'm not sure I'm comfortable with that.

Why? (serious question)

Spurs can afford any manager on the planet (unlike players), we have shown we can pay top dollar for the right manager, we have had Poch, Jose, Conte, Ange in the role

I don't see why we would want an early stage up and coming manager, Slot, Amorim is the minimum level, played in a side with pressure, with expectations, played in CL/Europe, hopefully won something.

Potter fudging imploded under pressure at Chelsea, Poch struggled but managed to turn that around by end of season, some level of experience matters.

 

[thfcsteff]

Why? (serious question)

Spurs can afford any manager on the planet (unlike players), we have shown we can pay top dollar for the right manager, we have had Poch, Jose, Conte, Ange in the role

I don't see why we would want an early stage up and coming manager, Slot, Amorim is the minimum level, played in a side with pressure, with expectations, played in CL/Europe, hopefully won something.

Potter fudging imploded under pressure at Chelsea, Poch struggled but managed to turn that around by end of season, some level of experience matters.

Potter was fudged over. I don't think any manager could've anticipated that situation/the way those fudging clowns operate. Poch did a brilliant job, essentially bedding in a philosophy and attitude with key players whilst having to manager 15 or so each week that didn't even train with the first team (and all the dramas that come with that). Maresca has taken advantage of that work and capitalised by getting the squad to manageable size (I think he's done a great job too).

 

[braineclipse]

As I have said before.

It's amazing how the like of Brighton et al, play their youngsters and we all start wishing we have players like that... Well we do and we are scared to play them.

But they are not ready, we hear people say... Well, neither are the so called starting 11, who have been absolutely brick most of the time.

All I ever hear are excuses why we shouldn't play them.

Yeah, Gray has been played... In every position but the one he actually plays in... As I said, we are playing Gray as a CB... Why loan out Philips? Surely Philips would get loads of play time in Europe and the Cups, alongside Drag's, rotating with Romero and VDV.... Would be better for us as our 4th choice CB will actually be getting game time with the actually team he was supposed to be playing with.

Sorry, it's appauling how we under use players.

You mean like Brighton loaned out Mitoma and he didn't actually start playing regularly for them until what, 23 or 24 years old? Or how Evan Ferguson has started 2 league games this season.

We're using young players. The next group of young players we have that have started breaking through are Gray, Bergvall and Moore. 18 and 17 years old. How many 18 year olds do Brighton have starting games regularly for them?

Gray played plenty of full back last season too.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Not sure I agree re Iraola

Ange may not have managed in the PL, but he has managed sides in the CL & WC, he has won league titles, the narrative that he had no real competitive history pre Spurs is a bit OTT

In my opinion, any alternative needs to have some combination of - played in Europe cups (just the juggle of league/domestic and european cups), top 5 league experience, experience in a club with expectations (again, Ange at Celtic), and a personality that isn't guaranteed to implode (De Zerbi). Additionally to avoid a total squad refresh, tactically similar to Ange (or able to reuse this squad)

The narrative around Ange is daft but fans can use what ever leverage they want to bash someone
I want us to stick with the plan I teh rise what is the point of spending the money we have
But, but… if the club want to sack Ange, they will
For me the stand out is Iraola. Poch Mk2. Very similar CV
I can’t think of anyone else
Potter didn’t implode, the club leadership did

 

[Mikey10]

I mention him because he was the pick last week after the Chelsea match. No doubt there’s a different pick every other day. Comes with the territory for those who are constantly wanting to change the manager.

I’m not convinced on Ange, but am still hoping he turns it around. If he doesn’t, I’m definitely against ditching him for someone who is a similar risk as he was.

Give it a couple of weeks, though, and Pep will be on the market…

 

[Mr Gogolak]

This is the same old tired line that gets thrown out whenever there’s a critical reply to someone else. It’s so lazy.

No, it's the opposite: it's demanding. If the original opinion was so poor, it should be easy to prove it wrong. Being patronising doesn't prove anything, it's just a rhetorical technique used to polarise a conversation and take the attention away from the original point.

Judging a player's ability or talent isn't an exact science. Everybody can get it wrong, no matter how long they've been in the game. Mourinho thought Scarlett would become a world class player for instance and, so far, it has failed to materialised. Johan Cruyff bought a guy from Hajduk called Goran Vucevic, claiming he was so good he could play anywhere. The list goes on and on. No matter how good or knowledgeable you are, you will get it wrong sometimes.

Now, having said that, I know that's your way of interacting with contradictors so this one's on me for not keeping my mouth shut. When you go to a pub, there's always some patrons you like and others you don't really get along with. There's room for everyone.

 

[Muttley]

Why? (serious question)

Spurs can afford any manager on the planet (unlike players), we have shown we can pay top dollar for the right manager, we have had Poch, Jose, Conte, Ange in the role

I don't see why we would want an early stage up and coming manager, Slot, Amorim is the minimum level, played in a side with pressure, with expectations, played in CL/Europe, hopefully won something.

Potter fudging imploded under pressure at Chelsea, Poch struggled but managed to turn that around by end of season, some level of experience matters.

Firstly, this is a hypothetical thread and I'm still in the Ange IN camp. That's my caveat to what's next.

The answer is because Maresca's do exist out there. 1st team coaches that just get on with their job of running 1st team affairs and have this amazing attention to detail. I'm getting very bored of Ange, the culture changer, the life coach, the philosopher. I want to see the Ange that coaches centre halves to mark players from crosses, or a set piece wizard. I want to be talking about Ange the master tactician, not talking about these flaws in his system all of the time. I also don't want politicians like we got with Jose, or that lack of people skills we saw with Conte.

Interestingly, the 2 you mention Slot and Amorim are more the type I talk about. You don't see Slot the philosopher at pressers. You see Slot the football coach. That's what I would want Iraola or Potter to be.

 

[tommysvr]

No, it's the opposite: it's demanding. If the original opinion was so poor, it should be easy to prove it wrong. Being patronising doesn't prove anything, it's just a rhetorical technique used to polarise a conversation and take the attention away from the original point.

Judging a player's ability or talent isn't an exact science. Everybody can get it wrong, no matter how long they've been in the game. Mourinho thought Scarlett would become a world class player for instance and, so far, it has failed to materialised. Johan Cruyff bought a guy from Hajduk called Goran Vucevic, claiming he was so good he could play anywhere. The list goes on and on. No matter how good or knowledgeable you are, you will get it wrong sometimes.

Now, having said that, I know that's your way of interacting with contradictors so this one's on me for not keeping my mouth shut. When you go to a pub, there's always some patrons you like and others you don't really get along with. There's room for everyone.

…I think you’ve missed the point here mate

 

[braineclipse]

Firstly, this is a hypothetical thread and I'm still in the Ange IN camp. That's my caveat to what's next.

The answer is because Maresca's do exist out there. 1st team coaches that just get on with their job of running 1st team affairs and have this amazing attention to detail. I'm getting very bored of Ange, the culture changer, the life coach, the philosopher. I want to see the Ange that coaches centre halves to mark players from crosses, or a set piece wizard. I want to be talking about Ange the master tactician, not talking about these flaws in his system all of the time. I also don't want politicians like we got with Jose, or that lack of people skills we saw with Conte.

Interestingly, the 2 you mention Slot and Amorim are more the type I talk about. You don't see Slot the philosopher at pressers. You see Slot the football coach. That's what I would want Iraola or Potter to be.

Any manager going through a rough period will have their tactics questioned.

Personally I think we need the culture changer. It's part of what I like about Ange myself. We have a lot of young players and not a good track record of getting across the line. We have a lot of money compared to most clubs, but still less than the clubs we want to be competing with.

To be successful we need to instill a really good menrality, both for games and development over time. Personally I think Ange is good at those things.

What he's doing right now when we've been struggling and under pressure. That's what we need imo. Can't know if it will work, but worth trying.

 

[Muttley]

Any manager going through a rough period will have their tactics questioned.

Personally I think we need the culture changer. It's part of what I like about Ange myself. We have a lot of young players and not a good track record of getting across the line. We have a lot of money compared to most clubs, but still less than the clubs we want to be competing with.

To be successful we need to instill a really good menrality, both for games and development over time. Personally I think Ange is good at those things.

What he's doing right now when we've been struggling and under pressure. That's what we need imo. Can't know if it will work, but worth trying.

Spurs need a culture change, yes, and Ange is in a key position to support that club level initiative. However, he needs to prove that he can align to our club culture as well.

Here's the question I would guess a lot of fans want to hear the answer to "Ange, you've managed in Oz, Japan and internationally and been successful. What's different in your mind in how you need to approach setup in the PL?"

That is still the million dollar question in a presser, rather than talk constantly about mentality and culture as if he's the expert and nobody else is.

 

[harr1984]

Spurs need a culture change, yes, and Ange is in a key position to support that club level initiative. However, he needs to prove that he can align to our club culture as well.

Here's the question I would guess a lot of fans want to hear the answer to "Ange, you've managed in Oz, Japan and internationally and been successful. What's different in your mind in how you need to approach setup in the PL?"

That is still the million dollar question in a presser, rather than talk constantly about mentality and culture as if he's the expert and nobody else is.

Firstly I'm not sure what our club culture is but anyway, he's not talking about it as if he's the expert and nobody is - the fact is, as has been mentioned by several managers our mentality and culture as a club has left a lot to be desired. He's talking about how he's trying to change that, and just when times get tough not straying from that. There is no million dollar question to answer, he is not going to change his approach - he has said a zillion times since being here he has an ethos about how to win football games and it's not going to change. I dont know how many times he has to say it whether you agree or disagree with it is fine but he's going to live or die by the same thing he has done every other time he's managed a club.

Hes experienced similar tough periods in his other jobs, and has done exactly the same thing doubling down in his approach. This was always a long term thing as alluded to by both Levy and Ange, with the recognition that it would involve developing young players which will inevitably mean inconsistencies at the best of times. I honestly think Levy has the learnt his lesson and is prepared to have more patience with this horse he has backed, but the overriding factor is whether the fans will because if they really turn in the stadium that is when his position becomes untenable.....

 

[Robspur12]

I’m not convinced on Ange, but am still hoping he turns it around. If he doesn’t, I’m definitely against ditching him for someone who is a similar risk as he was.

Give it a couple of weeks, though, and Pep will be on the market…

Most managers we appoint will be a risk and a similar one to someone like Iraola. There are very few sure thing managers out there and even if they were available would not necessarily come to us.

So I don't see a problem replacing Ange with someone like Iraola if the due diligence done by Munn, or whoever, adds up. Look at his stats, his overall set up, how he improves players on a relatively small budget. Then can he scale up to Spurs? If he looks like a reasonable bet after that, then appoint.

On Iraola, were he to come to Spurs he has more experience at PL level than Ange when he was appointed. So not the same level of risk IMHO.

At the moment though, we need to stick with Ange. As I said before, if it looks like he can achieve the milestones that should be within the reach of the club, i.e compete for top 4 or win one of the less prestigious trophies, then he gets longer. But there is no arbitrary date for me. It has to be milestone driven.

 

[braineclipse]

Spurs need a culture change, yes, and Ange is in a key position to support that club level initiative. However, he needs to prove that he can align to our club culture as well.

Here's the question I would guess a lot of fans want to hear the answer to "Ange, you've managed in Oz, Japan and internationally and been successful. What's different in your mind in how you need to approach setup in the PL?"

That is still the million dollar question in a presser, rather than talk constantly about mentality and culture as if he's the expert and nobody else is.

I'm not sure he'd give much of a meaningful answer to that, but would be an interesting question to hear him answer none the less. Perhaps particularly now that he's had some time and experience here already.

 

[braineclipse]

Most managers we appoint will be a risk and a similar one to someone like Iraola. There are very few sure thing managers out there and even if they were available would not necessarily come to us.

So I don't see a problem replacing Ange with someone like Iraola if the due diligence done by Munn, or whoever, adds up. Look at his stats, his overall set up, how he improves players on a relatively small budget. Then can he scale up to Spurs? If he looks like a reasonable bet after that, then appoint.

On Iraola, were he to come to Spurs he has more experience at PL level than Ange when he was appointed. So not the same level of risk IMHO.

At the moment though, we need to stick with Ange. As I said before, if it looks like he can achieve the milestones that should be within the reach of the club, i.e compete for top 4 or win one of the less prestigious trophies, then he gets longer. But there is no arbitrary date for me. It has to be milestone driven.

How much value does PL experience actually have for a manager?

Some of the most successful managers in the PL have come in to be successful without having worked in this league before.

I'm not convinced on Iraola one way or the other. But I think fit for the club and style of play (including existing players when we're already some way down a rebuild) seems to me the key. Knowing English fairly well is useful. Actual experience in the PL, not so sure it matters all that much.

 

[lurker of old]

Ange seems more about being a philosopher, life coach and THFC culture change agent. He seems less about "tracksuit and training ground"

That's a really interesting observation. I suspect most fans love the "life coach/culture-change" aspect of Ange, but - till our win record improves - have some doubts about the tactics and training regime, as exemplified by seeing our centre backs running back at 200 mph, or the number of unopposed free headers at the back post.... But beat United on Thursday and get a win against one of Pool or Forest, and most folk won't be too unhappy.

 

[Raziel]

Spurs need a culture change, yes, and Ange is in a key position to support that club level initiative. However, he needs to prove that he can align to our club culture as well.

Here's the question I would guess a lot of fans want to hear the answer to "Ange, you've managed in Oz, Japan and internationally and been successful. What's different in your mind in how you need to approach setup in the PL?"

That is still the million dollar question in a presser, rather than talk constantly about mentality and culture as if he's the expert and nobody else is.

He's been asked that several times (or some variation), his answer usually is

- Nothing, while teams may be better, the relative challenge is the same, i.e. other clubs in Japan/Aus/etc. are tough for those clubs

You are not going to get a pragmatic answer from Ange, his view point is, if you play at a certain intensity, if you play with a certain philosophy (his system is more that than 4-3-3), i.e. press high, run into open spaces, create overloads (2-3-5 in attack), you will score goals (proven true, we consistently score as much as anyone in league)

 

[Daveeeeeeeed]

Firstly, this is a hypothetical thread and I'm still in the Ange IN camp. That's my caveat to what's next.

The answer is because Maresca's do exist out there. 1st team coaches that just get on with their job of running 1st team affairs and have this amazing attention to detail. I'm getting very bored of Ange, the culture changer, the life coach, the philosopher. I want to see the Ange that coaches centre halves to mark players from crosses, or a set piece wizard. I want to be talking about Ange the master tactician, not talking about these flaws in his system all of the time. I also don't want politicians like we got with Jose, or that lack of people skills we saw with Conte.

Interestingly, the 2 you mention Slot and Amorim are more the type I talk about. You don't see Slot the philosopher at pressers. You see Slot the football coach. That's what I would want Iraola or Potter to be.

I do think we missed an opportunity on Slot, although I believe he turned us down but looks like a very clever and tactical coach coming from a few articles I read last year when we were rumoured to be talking to him. He has only brought in Chiesa, who they havent even used yet, so hasnt even put his own stamp on his squad yet and he has his team top of the league. This Sunday I do think you will see the better tactician come through and Liverpool may outplay, and nullify our tactics and get the result to help push them on.