Ange in or out?

[Bedfordspurs]

He has to change how he plays for a while to adapt then. He’s in danger, imo, of never being able to see out his long-term vision because he’s refusing to adapt to relativity short-term issues.

There’s also the argument as to why we’re facing this type of injury crisis for the second season in a row. Is it because of how the team are being asked to play?

not that anyone really listens to or reads all the transcripts of his pressers but Ange did call it something last week… I can’t never the wording but it was almost as if he was saying it’s fully expected the way we train under him
I found that odd
But he definitely cleared it up for the press

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Yep, and my thoughts were that if most of this group have been together for 18 months, why isn't that the case? 10 of our first 11 players were part of our current best team and another 3 or 4 were the main subs. We can't assign the reason that we can't transition between different tactical systems for phases of the game anymore on the players. You have to start questioning the manager in the post 18 months period we're now going into. We should be normalised by now.

No one wants to hear it but when it’s out first choice line up (not sure who starts as dm or the exact midfield set up) the team do well
It’s constant okay though so no rest defence until we’re ahead.
When you look at the teams e have smashed we have allowed ourselves those rest periods hence why we don’t have as much posssesion
But lose some of those players and it’s not as an effective team. Or worse…. Okay those players to death and they can’t perform. Not in this way of playing anyway
Ange has roostered up in not resting at last one player a game
If you look at slots pool side he changes one player every game it seems
The only constants seem to be gravenbach and VVD and even the former has been rested now once or twice
If Ange had brought in Spence for 30 minutes at the end of a game for day Porro, then started him next game for destiny he may not have got injured and he may have saved those players some minutes
The only part of the squad we don’t have a real option for swapping a player out in is right wing (odebert looked more comfortable on the left like everyone else). Hopefully Yang will fix that but i believe I’m Being way too optimistic there
And at CB he should have brought Drago in for a game instead of Romero, then for Micky next game
That’s what the top guys do as managers imo
Ange is squeezing the lemon until it runs out of juice

 

[glasgowspur]

When 5 of our last 6 or 7 permanent signings were teenagers it is obvious he needs more time. Teenagers need time to develop and our by their very nature inconsistent.

Preparing for the fall out at City and peps exit.
I don't think we are alone in being caught out by city's collapse, pep signing a new contract or the apparent continuity at Liverpool.

 

[NaijaSpurs]

Preparing for the fall out at City and peps exit.
I don't think we are alone in being caught out by city's collapse, pep signing a new contract or the apparent continuity at Liverpool.

Well that is just poor planning.

We have done nothing to suggest we have been good enough to catch Liverpool, who
have always been ready to spend big when necessary.

Even the Goons strengthen with quality. Even without a top striker they have left us in thr shade.

I guess we ignored Chelsea too.

If we are not ready to spend money on quality we have ro give our manager time. Just as we did with Poch.

 

[SkipRat]

Well that is just poor planning.

We have done nothing to suggest we have been good enough to catch Liverpool, who
have always been ready to spend big when necessary.

Even the Goons strengthen with quality. Even without a top striker they have left us in thr shade.

I guess we ignored Chelsea too.

If we are not ready to spend money on quality we have ro give our manager time. Just as we did with Poch.

We didn't look like was regressing under Poch though.

 

[Bullet]

We didn't look like was regressing under Poch though.

Please don't start that debate AGAIN. We've had it 1000 times.

I agree with Bedforspurs, Ange should have used Spence, Gray, Berg, Lank to give half hour rests to players, so keep ALL players fit.

Even using Spence instead of Johnson would be better than seeing the lacklustre Johnson doing nothing, exhausted.

 

[SkipRat]

Please don't start that debate AGAIN. We've had it 1000 times.

I agree with Bedforspurs, Ange should have used Spence, Gray, Berg, Lank to give half hour rests to players, so keep ALL players fit.

Even using Spence instead of Johnson would be better than seeing the lacklustre Johnson doing nothing, exhausted.

I was referring to not being able to pass a ball 3 times without giving it away.

Under Poch, we were attacking with intelligent play, pressing as team, defending as team, attacking as team... We looked like a cohessive unit.

We rarely, if at anytime looked as clueless, devoid of ideas, lack of basic ability, chaotic and broken passages of play, under Poch.

What we are now, is fecking cluster fudge of epic proportions...

 

[Bedfordspurs]

We didn't look like was regressing under Poch though.

Did you see the away form the what we sacked Poch
That was regressing… massively
But he also had earned a year of pain at least imo
But don’t forget we had a lot of fans demanding he goes too

 

[SkipRat]

Did you see the away form the what we sacked Poch
That was regressing… massively
But he also had earned a year of pain at least imo
But don’t forget we had a lot of fans demanding he goes too

And I wonder why that was?

Maybe because the Levy bald c*nt, failed to back him, like he always does with managers... Levy broke Poch. Rather than getting the support he needed.

In CL and Levy spends £0, or gives Poch f*cking Sissoko... I would have given up too...

It's all about context, and the biggest problem at the club is Levy. Always has, always will be.

The bald tw*t didn;t even know how many players we could have out on lone and had to give Doherty away.

Shambolic....

Poch was the best thing to happen to this club, and Levy f*cked it for everyone.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Apart from Solanke we have failed to sign a player good enough to automatically raise the ceiling of our squad, that is disappointing and makes it harder for the Ange.

Odobert might have something to say about that. And only a fool would bet against buying players like Gray and Bergvail for the squad.

If you look at our goal difference and rank teams on this, we’d be 4th. Counts for nothing. But backs up the argument that we’ve been punching below our weight. And that we’re a bit better than many (moaning) fans make out.

 

[Lilbaz]

It depends who is available. If we could bring in gasperini it would be out for me. Although it looks like gasperini will leave atalanta in a coffin.

 

[Mr Gogolak]

Lets talk this through, to me

Tactics - on one end, the ceiling for his model has been proven, I'd argue our best games have been better than anything in modern era that wasn't simple an elite player (Bale. Modric, Son, Kane) bailing us out. The challenge is two things tactically -> consistency (could be squad depth/balance) and ability to put away lower level sides (no space, work ethic is extremely high, time wasting/fouls)
Squad - Similar to tactics, for the system, first 11 has shown itself to be good enough, with some concerns around balance (midfield or L/RW choices can throw off system). Also real concerns around injuries
Peers - this is interesting, I think the current set of upcoming managers seem to be better than in recent years (a few years ago, Potter would have been a top pick, now I don't think he'd get a mid table job), so we have a few mid level clubs punching above their level which we will be compared to.
Club expectations - while we fans seem to believe we have some magical influence on club decisions/targets, we don't. I said it early in season, we didn't buy Gray, Bergvall, Wilson, Yang expecting result this season, our purchases seem very much to build a squad in 18-36 months not now

Personally, outside of utter collapse, I think he's got to the end of season, I think if he's smart, the cups become must win now, club probably needs to make a couple of decent purchases in Jan as well wot have any hope of recovering the season.

I'm not as sold on tactics as you seem to be but the important thing, in my opinion, is that we're getting interesting results/performances against bigger sides. Sometimes in football, it seems like there's a glass ceiling and you will never be able to beat certain teams. In Postecoglou's case, it's more of a 'glass floor' - we struggle against weaker sides. Whether he can fix this or not remains to be seen, but you can't help but feel it's easier than the other way round.

The squad is okay but despite some investment, it's still a couple of positions short of a very good first XI. I'm not sure our wingers really fit Postecoglou's system and we need a better all-round defensive midfielder. But, to me, the injuries are the real problem. Of course, it could be down to the fitness staff who don't do their work properly. In the case, they should be let go at the first opportunity. But I really feel the intensity of the so-called 'Angeball' is a cause for all these injuries. If we can't play two games a week with this system or if we need two players of equal quality in each position, then Postecoglou will never been a long-term solution. Regardless of our stature, we've proved that we have what it takes to play in the CL and that's what we should be aiming for, at least in the long term.

As for the peers, I'd say that being a manager now is both more difficult and less rewarding than it used to be. Forty years ago, a few tactical ideas and a strong personaly could bring you far (see Ferguson or Clough). Now you get to work with data scientist. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say Postecoglou would have been in his element 40 or 50 years ago in England (a mean person would say that's today's Scottish football).

This is a just a long-winded way of saying that, rather than results themselves, I'd keep a close eye on the injury list and if can't keep that down to a certain level, I'd think about replacing him or whoever is responsible for that. In any case, not being able to play two games a week is unacceptable for a club with (what I suppose to be) our expectations.

 

[NaijaSpurs]

Odobert might have something to say about that. And only a fool would bet against buying players like Gray and Bergvail for the squad.

No one is betting against them, the fact is all three players are teenagers, which implies inconsistency and necessitates time for future development

 

[Bullet]

An viewpoint worth pondering, from profspur‪@profspur.bsky.social‬
1) If you look at the 'play styles' and tactics of teams competing at the very top of the table--competing for the title--what they have in common is they're all about controlling the game, forcing opponents to adapt, rather than the other way around
2) Could Spurs pick up a few more points by doing the kinds of things, tactically, that a lot of our frustrated fans want them to do? Sitting deeper, playing more conservatively, etc.? Maybe. We don't look great defending behind the ball anyway, but maybe
3) But if you think that way then you're missing the point. If you want to battle for 'top 4' then you can do all the things the match comms and frustrated fans want Ange to do. All the 'be pragmatic stuff.' You want to know why all the ex-pro pundits want that for Spurs?
4) Because they don't think of Spurs as a team that challenges for titles. They don't think of Spurs as a team that imposes themselves on every opponent, regardless of who they are. They think of Spurs as a team that should be beating up on weaker opponents and fearing top sides.
5) That's why they're telling Ange to be practical. It's a backhanded compliment. It's saying 'you can achieve something--not something great, but something OK--if you just know your place and play pragmatic football.'
6) I get why ex-Liverpool, Man Utd, Arsenal players think that way about 'Lads, it's Tottenham.' What I don't get is why our own fans think that way. Because one thing about Ange that you can't take away from him is he absolutely does not think that way
7) The way Ange is setting this team up to play is all about dominating football matches. In terms of personnel we're not there yet, so it's not gonna be easy, nor always pleasant. But the transformation he's working on in this club is changing us from
8) ... a 'best of the rest' club that's expected to win against everyone but the legacies--and ridiculed when we lose to a lesser opponent, and ridiculed when we *beat* a grander opponent--into a genuine contender for the top 1-2 spots. ...
9) And again you don't become a genuine contender for the title by playing reactive football. Our fanbase has gotten so used to being pretty good that they've lost sight of what it means to be great. /end

 

[SpurMeUp]

No one is betting against them, the fact is all three players are teenagers, which implies inconsistency and necessitates time for future development

I don’t disagree.

We needed a larger squad. Buying two prospects who could become elite to take these roles, has no argument from me.

Yes we probably wanted Eze (and a shortlist of alternatives). But I wouldn’t overpay for Eze either. Paying top top elite money for a player who only hints at elite ability is a stretch. I watched some of the city-palace game today and his final product isn’t as good (yet) as Maddison. Skilled. But isn’t yet elite because he doesn’t score or assist enough (afaik, someone may prove me wrong but that was what I saw today and playing for England).

So would you spend huge on him? Or wait and put 60m and heavy wages towards a better player? At this price point you don’t get second chances. A bum transfer sets the club back 5 years as we know from Ndombele. Not saying Eze would be anything similar to the fat one, he’s a solid skillful player. But you have to set a price that you are prepared to pay that matches their ability. Not overpaying for Eze is probably the correct decision imo.

 

[Gutter Boy]

I don’t disagree.

We needed a larger squad. Buying two prospects who could become elite to take these roles, has no argument from me.

Yes we probably wanted Eze (and a shortlist of alternatives). But I wouldn’t overpay for Eze either. Paying top top elite money for a player who only hints at elite ability is a stretch. I watched some of the city-palace game today and his final product isn’t as good (yet) as Maddison. Skilled. But isn’t yet elite because he doesn’t score or assist enough (afaik, someone may prove me wrong but that was what I saw today and playing for England).

So would you spend huge on him? Or wait and put 60m and heavy wages towards a better player? At this price point you don’t get second chances. A bum transfer sets the club back 5 years as we know from Ndombele. Not saying Eze would be anything similar to the fat one, he’s a solid skillful player. But you have to set a price that you are prepared to pay that matches their ability. Not overpaying for Eze is probably the correct decision imo.

I like Eze, but Olise was always the elite one of the pair. I'm happy to see how Bergvall kicks on instead over the next 18 months.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I like Eze, but Olise was always the elite one of the pair. I'm happy to see how Bergvall kicks on instead over the next 18 months.

Don't get me wrong, Eze is a talent, would be an asset and help us. But he's not a 'blank check' player - you don't just pay anything demanded for him because he doesn't currently make enough of the promising positions he creates.

We still need to move on some players, and upgrade them. Richarlison first and foremost. Not having him available this season has been a massive hit because of the way we play. Ange's forwards are often sacrificial. They run. They have to close, they have to tackle, and make runs to open up space. Ange doesn't mind if his forward is not always scoring, so long as he's opening up space for others. Solanke has taken up the mantel. But normally he'd be getting replaced at 65 mins, and rotated in cup games.

When you come up against a side like Bournemouth who are fresh and drilled to track our runners with diligence, the lack of freshness from Solanke, Kulu, Son and Maddison is crucial.

 

[NLS]

I am Ange in but there are obviously lots of problems at the moment...

I can see us losing against chelscum and drawing against Rangers...

Because of that I think Southampton away on Sunday 15 December will be judgement day... Lose that and I think ange will be gone before we play Man U on the following Thursday..

It all makes me very sad that so much hope is now starting to fade away....

 

[Grays_1890]

I think one point that is being overlooked in all this is the so called "lesser clubs" that have taken points off us are actually taking them off of others of so called higher standing and are having in their own right outstanding seasons. Liverpool are the only real outstanding side in the league this year, every other manager is suffering form the same inconsistencies and at the hands of the same sides as Ange has.

 

[paxtonwolf]

I am Ange in but there are obviously lots of problems at the moment...

I can see us losing against chelscum and drawing against Rangers...

Because of that I think Southampton away on Sunday 15 December will be judgement day... Lose that and I think ange will be gone before we play Man U on the following Thursday..

It all makes me very sad that so much hope is now starting to fade away....

Exactly as I see it. Could be a very interesting late Sunday night match....I mean Sunday 7pm, who came up with that nugget??