Ange in or out?

[DeanoAustin]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1901380229911769334

Again angry at a fan for asking "what the fudge was that"

That beggars belief. That's the 3rd time this season and he did it last year v City too. So unprofessional. Surely Levy, who regularly gets half a stadium abusing him and never reacts, must take a dim view of this.

I've always tried to steer away from having personal pops at Ange. I've tried not to call him clueless, amateur, PE teacher and the rest. But he doesn't make it easy. The fella is well out of his depth at this level in every way. He can't accept criticism and he's shown it. Being moved out of this situation by a 19 year old...that's embarrassing.

Ange is very lucky he doesn't manage in Spain, Portugal, Turkey or Italy. In those countries, to paraphrase Jose, "they throw bottles at you" for underachieving. The fact Ange is underachieving almost as much as one can at Tottenham would mean he'd be getting absolute pelters there.

Sooner he's gone the better. There's very little redeemable about him.

 

[tommysvr]

That beggars belief. That's the 3rd time this season and he did it last year v City too. So unprofessional. Surely Levy, who regularly gets half a stadium abusing him and never reacts, must take a dim view of this.

I've always tried to steer away from having personal pops at Ange. I've tried not to call him clueless, amateur, PE teacher and the rest. But he doesn't make it easy. The fella is well out of his depth at this level in every way. He can't accept criticism and he's shown it. Being moved out of this situation by a 19 year old...that's embarrassing.

Ange is very lucky he doesn't manage in Spain, Portugal, Turkey or Italy. In those countries, to paraphrase Jose, "they throw bottles at you" for underachieving. The fact Ange is underachieving almost as much as one can at Tottenham would mean he'd be getting absolute pelters there.

Sooner he's gone the better. There's very little redeemable about him.

It's a weird one. In isolation, I don't really see much wrong with saying something back to a fan. But you're right that when it happens repeatedly then it's an issue.

I try to avoid playing armchair psychologist but for me it feels like the chip on his shoulder is growing and growing. I think that chip comes from his perspective of being this Aussie challenger taking on the English press and fans who all seem out to get him. In the past, I think the chip has driven him and he's used it to his advantage, to galvanise the club he's in charge of but nothing is improving at Spurs.

It increasingly looks in real danger of spinning out of control and being a really rough end.

 

[metalgear]

Ange is now in denial or delusional . Quotes post match shows he thinks we played good enough (no attempts on goal in the first half, why rest son, madds and bergvall when the international break is coming) and refuses to take responsbility for the soft goals that we continually give away (playing a LB and CM in midfield)

"Today wasn't so much about performance, it was just another day when we let a game get away from us that we shouldn't have. We weren't played off the park and I felt that up until the point they scored, we were the team that was getting on top.

"We had a couple of good chances to go 1-0 up and that would have put the pressure on them but it's happened too many times this year. We've given the opposition a lift into the game by conceding soft goals."

I don't think Mason is ready, but I would prefer him til end of season. Quite honestly Webb seems to have done nothing too. Hopefully he is just warming the seat for Paratici.

 

[RigorMortis]

It's a weird one. In isolation, I don't really see much wrong with saying something back to a fan. But you're right that when it happens repeatedly then it's an issue.

I try to avoid playing armchair psychologist but for me it feels like the chip on his shoulder is growing and growing. I think that chip comes from his perspective of being this Aussie challenger taking on the English press and fans who all seem out to get him. In the past, I think the chip has driven him and he's used it to his advantage, to galvanise the club he's in charge of but nothing is improving at Spurs.

It increasingly looks in real danger of spinning out of control and being a really rough end.

tbf there’s a longer clip where the same fan says “what the fudge is that, you knobhead” and he rears to that rather than the comment on the posted video. Probably still needs to exercise self control but the fan comment isn’t as harmless as it seemed

 

[tommysvr]

tbf there’s a longer clip where the same fan says “what the fudge is that, you knobhead” and he rears to that rather than the comment on the posted video. Probably still needs to exercise self control but the fan comment isn’t as harmless as it seemed

Exactly right, often these videos are clipped just right so the fan looks innocent.

But that's not to excuse Ange. Someone with his experience should know the only thing to do there is to keep walking.

 

[thfcsteff]

We have never finished bottom 6 of the Premier League. Not even under Ossie or Gross. There is a real chance it happens this season as only goal difference is keeping us above 5 other teams at the moment.

Ossie and Gross were terrible managers for us but they genuinely inherited brickshows. Ange inherited a club who had challenged for European football for pretty much 20 years straight.

That's the scale of the horrific job he's done this season. There is no argument for keeping him. He's been a disaster.

To be clear mate, I am using your reply as a general response to several here, albeit the first bit below is specific to your post. I offer it in the spirit of discussion not rancor...


...In that Gross season, we finished 14th, or 6th from bottom, a squad with Ginola, Ferdinand, Anderson, Mabbutt, Carr, Campbell and Klinsmann. Under Ossie we finished 15th, or 5th from bottom, a squad with Anderton, Sheringham, Mabbutt, Carr, Barmby, and Erik the Viking.

Ange did not inherit a club who had challenged for European football for pretty much 20 years straight, he inherited a club which was in need of a complete and utter rebuild, root and branch, within the entire club (football side and boardroom structure in relation to footballing operations) and on the verge of losing the generational talent who had band-aided the post-Poch years. He literally started with a combination of mediocrity and promise. THIS season, the agreed and continued path of youth was persued, meaning we have spent much of the season with a hugelky young and inexperienced side. I won't go on about the injuries!

I think his time has come. I think it is pretty much untennable that he will be here beyond the summer. Water and bridges and all that. The performances have not been good enough, even with context that is clearly the case, but he will never, ever be given any concession as people are fudging angry. I get it. I've been angry too. But the balance of discussion has been lost IMO.

The work he has done here will not ever be recognized. But it is undeniable. Gray, Bergvall, Spence, managing Moore when the geezer wasn't even a regular U-21 yet. The first three will benefit enormously from this season. Did we have a choice? Probably not. Did he manage them very well during a time which could've broken such young talents? IMO, yes.

It is possible to be critical of him and also recognise that he has faced challenges and hurdles unlike any other Spurs manager in modern times. I have read some people go on about himn being 'the worst ever' and nonsense like that. I remember Terry Neil's dismal dismal Spurs. Burky took over and we got relegated. It wasn't on him, it was the mess that utter p-rick Neil left behind. I remember towards the end of the Badger's era some of the most dismal football I've ever seen from us. I remember how truly lost Gross was. And some of the rubbish that Mourinho served up was beyond reproach. In my opinion anyway.

I think Postecoglu will leave and carry the burden of anger for some time. I believe one day, probably a few years down the line, people will have softened and recognised what he did during an era of enormous difficulties....it's a bit like how suddenly I see people begging for Poch's return; yes, that's right, some of them are the very same who could not wait to be rid of him.

 

[thfcsteff]

We didn't even play that well v AZ

Agreed, it was nervy and rough going.

 

[thfcsteff]

seriously don’t understand you.
i think very few people are taking the stress of Spurs into the every day context of their lives.
if you don’t get passionate ( good and bad ) aboitn
your team when they are playing, what’s the point.

Conversly as you can’t control it, did you just shrug your shoulders and have a pack of cheese and onion crisps when Lucas scored in injury time against Ajax

It's the other way around IMO. I think life and the state of the world is seriously affecting people's attitude towards the club and supporting the club through tough times.

In my case, I continue to get angriest at people who don't support the club through rough times, who cannot have a reasonable fudging discussion without it degenerating into 'fat clown shoe' or 'useless clam' or diving head first into some anti-Australian flimflam...I am sure that those feelings are increased because of the amount of loud-mouthed bigoted clamS who are rising around the globe. Add that to my natural instinct to defend anyone who is an underdog or getting bullied, and right now, ther LAST thing I am interested in with anyone taking hardline trenchant views is giving in. I won't do it. fudge it, and fudge THAT!!!

IF someone is interested in reasonable discussions and exchanges of views, I am right there. I am ALWAYS happy to admit when I'm wrong, and will often see another perspective/viewpoint and take it onboard.

Not sure HOW I ended up here replying to your post mate, but here I am hahaha...obviously the reply is about much more than just your post, so apologies for being slightly off-topic...

 

[joeybloke]

To be clear mate, I am using your reply as a general response to several here, albeit the first bit below is specific to your post. I offer it in the spirit of discussion not rancor...


...In that Gross season, we finished 14th, or 6th from bottom, a squad with Ginola, Ferdinand, Anderson, Mabbutt, Carr, Campbell and Klinsmann. Under Ossie we finished 15th, or 5th from bottom, a squad with Anderton, Sheringham, Mabbutt, Carr, Barmby, and Erik the Viking.

Ange did not inherit a club who had challenged for European football for pretty much 20 years straight, he inherited a club which was in need of a complete and utter rebuild, root and branch, within the entire club (football side and boardroom structure in relation to footballing operations) and on the verge of losing the generational talent who had band-aided the post-Poch years. He literally started with a combination of mediocrity and promise. THIS season, the agreed and continued path of youth was persued, meaning we have spent much of the season with a hugelky young and inexperienced side. I won't go on about the injuries!

I think his time has come. I think it is pretty much untennable that he will be here beyond the summer. Water and bridges and all that. The performances have not been good enough, even with context that is clearly the case, but he will never, ever be given any concession as people are fudging angry. I get it. I've been angry too. But the balance of discussion has been lost IMO.

The work he has done here will not ever be recognized. But it is undeniable. Gray, Bergvall, Spence, managing Moore when the geezer wasn't even a regular U-21 yet. The first three will benefit enormously from this season. Did we have a choice? Probably not. Did he manage them very well during a time which could've broken such young talents? IMO, yes.

It is possible to be critical of him and also recognise that he has faced challenges and hurdles unlike any other Spurs manager in modern times. I have read some people go on about himn being 'the worst ever' and nonsense like that. I remember Terry Neil's dismal dismal Spurs. Burky took over and we got relegated. It wasn't on him, it was the mess that utter p-rick Neil left behind. I remember towards the end of the Badger's era some of the most dismal football I've ever seen from us. I remember how truly lost Gross was. And some of the rubbish that Mourinho served up was beyond reproach. In my opinion anyway.

I think Postecoglu will leave and carry the burden of anger for some time. I believe one day, probably a few years down the line, people will have softened and recognised what he did during an era of enormous difficulties....it's a bit like how suddenly I see people begging for Poch's return; yes, that's right, some of them are the very same who could not wait to be rid of him.

I like your posts thfcsteff, always thoughtful and i agree with a lot of what you write - but am not on the same page as you on your thoughts as to how Ange has done, so much so I have broken a 2 decade lurking streak on this forum. Personally I think it's generally easier to do your job when you have to instigate a rebuild. i am more impressed with the job Poch did at Chelsea, where he walked into a mess and had to operate within the confines of that mess.

 

[RigorMortis]

It's the other way around IMO. I think life and the state of the world is seriously affecting people's attitude towards the club and supporting the club through tough times.

In my case, I continue to get angriest at people who don't support the club through rough times, who cannot have a reasonable fudging discussion without it degenerating into 'fat clown shoe' or 'useless clam' or diving head first into some anti-Australian flimflam...I am sure that those feelings are increased because of the amount of loud-mouthed bigoted clamS who are rising around the globe. Add that to my natural instinct to defend anyone who is an underdog or getting bullied, and right now, ther LAST thing I am interested in with anyone taking hardline trenchant views is giving in. I won't do it. fudge it, and fudge THAT!!!

IF someone is interested in reasonable discussions and exchanges of views, I am right there. I am ALWAYS happy to admit when I'm wrong, and will often see another perspective/viewpoint and take it onboard.

Not sure HOW I ended up here replying to your post mate, but here I am hahaha...obviously the reply is about much more than just your post, so apologies for being slightly off-topic...

Ha I do know one thing that has affected me is now living 7-8 hours ahead of England, waking up to watch a spurs game at 4am and then showering and going to work after a loss,means I stew over it far more than I did back home.

I do think my intolerance of Ange has probably been affected by thst

I remember back in the days when we were really brick I’d go to the corner pin or bar latinas and the. Out for the night and tbh I forgot about the fact we had lost

 

[Gazza]

It's a weird one. In isolation, I don't really see much wrong with saying something back to a fan. But you're right that when it happens repeatedly then it's an issue.

I try to avoid playing armchair psychologist but for me it feels like the chip on his shoulder is growing and growing. I think that chip comes from his perspective of being this Aussie challenger taking on the English press and fans who all seem out to get him. In the past, I think the chip has driven him and he's used it to his advantage, to galvanise the club he's in charge of but nothing is improving at Spurs.

It increasingly looks in real danger of spinning out of control and being a really rough end.

Don’t agree he was the media darling and could do no wrong when he came here … the results have been shockingly poor as have spurs under him. That’s what has built the pressure. The media have asked him some very simple questions and he has failed miserably in handling his emotions or replies.

He’s not an Aussie victim he’s just another manager that has failed and is now getting pushed to the brink with his own doing

 

[tommysvr]

Don’t agree he was the media darling and could do no wrong when he came here … the results have been shockingly poor as have spurs under him. That’s what has built the pressure. The media have asked him some very simple questions and he has failed miserably in handling his emotions or replies.

He’s not an Aussie victim he’s just another manager that has failed and is now getting pushed to the brink with his own doing

That's just the British press though. They do that to everyone. Build 'em up because the fall will be even greater, and we'll be there to capture it.

(not saying the fall happened because of the press in this case)

 

[thfcsteff]

Ha I do know one thing that has affected me is now living 7-8 hours ahead of England, waking up to watch a spurs game at 4am and then showering and going to work after a loss,means I stew over it far more than I did back home.

I do think my intolerance of Ange has probably been affected by thst

I remember back in the days when we were really brick I’d go to the corner pin or bar latinas and the. Out for the night and tbh I forgot about the fact we had lost

It is the weirdest bit about getting older isn't it? You simply don't/can't do that anymore. Instead, you sort of live through it and glibly try to find justifications/reasons/excuses/anythings...and, as you said, watching games at unearthly hours and having the entire day to stew on it.
Weirdly I find myself at a place in life where I strive to NOT think existentially except when it comes to my beloved Tottenham Hotspur FC when I find it is the only type of thought that can help!!!! I swear mate, a small piece of my Tottenham me died on June 1st in Madrid 2019, and again that November...

Be well my friend...

 

[thfcsteff]

I like your posts thfcsteff, always thoughtful and i agree with a lot of what you write - but am not on the same page as you on your thoughts as to how Ange has done, so much so I have broken a 2 decade lurking streak on this forum. Personally I think it's generally easier to do your job when you have to instigate a rebuild. i am more impressed with the job Poch did at Chelsea, where he walked into a mess and had to operate within the confines of that mess.

Fair enough mate, and can see your perspective too. I wholly, wholly agree re: Poch and Chelsea. He did something pretty amazing with that brick-show.

 

[RigorMortis]

Don’t agree he was the media darling and could do no wrong when he came here … the results have been shockingly poor as have spurs under him. That’s what has built the pressure. The media have asked him some very simple questions and he has failed miserably in handling his emotions or replies.

He’s not an Aussie victim he’s just another manager that has failed and is now getting pushed to the brink with his own doing

I think it’s a tough one, he was definately much chirpier when things were going well and then increasingly became more defensive and at times quite unlikeable as the performances have worsened.

There is a degree of his nationality playing a part in this, I think it’s more because the general view is that Australia isn’t a football country so how can he be any good rather than actual xenophobia but it would be silly to not acknowledge it’s not there ( maybe not in the mainstream media as much because there would be uproar)

Is Ange aware of it and does it then come across as a chip on the shoulder, I think so.

For me as much as I don’t rate him as a coach and think he has been a disaster, I do acknowledge that he did his best and ultimately just wasn’t good enough. That’s why even for him, it might be the best thing for him to go

 

[RigorMortis]

It is the weirdest bit about getting older isn't it? You simply don't/can't do that anymore. Instead, you sort of live through it and glibly try to find justifications/reasons/excuses/anythings...and, as you said, watching games at unearthly hours and having the entire day to stew on it.
Weirdly I find myself at a place in life where I strive to NOT think existentially except when it comes to my beloved Tottenham Hotspur FC when I find it is the only type of thought that can help!!!! I swear mate, a small piece of my Tottenham me died on June 1st in Madrid 2019, and again that November...

Be well my friend...

I honestly thought that if we beat Liverpool, I would take a step back, what could get better than this.
I went to a live podcast of the spurs show in Madrid on the Saturday morning of the game, Damien commolli and Norman Jay were the guests, I got to say Norman made me believe.
I was crushed when that penalty went in, I knew instinctively that the dream was over because with our ownership structure we aren’t a club who are built to react in a positive way to adversity.
With Poch I wish he had left that day, he did all he could and it was clear to me that we were on a downward slope, because of things mostly out of his control.

Nowadays I find myself more and more disengaged with it.
Watching games on a Sunday night at 11 pmor a weekday in the morning on my Tod ( kids are asleep). Last night’s game was actually relatively early at half nine in the evening but yes it’s a strange sensation.

 

[thfcsteff]

I honestly thought that if we beat Liverpool, I would take a step back, what could get better than this.
I went to a live podcast of the spurs show in Madrid on the Saturday morning of the game, Damien commolli and Norman Jay were the guests, I got to say Norman made me believe.
I was crushed when that penalty went in, I knew instinctively that the dream was over because with our ownership structure we aren’t a club who are built to react in a positive way to adversity.
With Poch I wish he had left that day, he did all he could and it was clear to me that we were on a downward slope, because of things mostly out of his control.

Nowadays I find myself more and more disengaged with it.
Watching games on a Sunday night at 11 pmor a weekday in the morning on my Tod ( kids are asleep). Last night’s game was actually relatively early at half nine in the evening but yes it’s a strange sensation.

Norman Jay's a top man, seen hiom at many games over the decades...and yes, I agree. We ever-so-nearly pulled off the dream. Winning the biggest trophy of all with no oligarch/oil state money. It was then or never. And when they have the penalty (I was behind the goal second tier) I said to my friends 'we are not allowed to have nice things'...at the time I fiercely wanted Poch to stay. When he did, I was excited he'd have the chance to rebuild. When I realized it was a stitch up of sorts, I was desolate. Hindsight has me agreeing with you 100%.

I still get back for games, and I still love nothing more than an away day, but this season has challenged me greatly, and it is as much because the noise around the club is so disjointed. I love unity, not this :-(

 

[Gazza]

I think it’s a tough one, he was definately much chirpier when things were going well and then increasingly became more defensive and at times quite unlikeable as the performances have worsened.

There is a degree of his nationality playing a part in this, I think it’s more because the general view is that Australia isn’t a football country so how can he be any good rather than actual xenophobia but it would be silly to not acknowledge it’s not there ( maybe not in the mainstream media as much because there would be uproar)

Is Ange aware of it and does it then come across as a chip on the shoulder, I think so.

For me as much as I don’t rate him as a coach and think he has been a disaster, I do acknowledge that he did his best and ultimately just wasn’t good enough. That’s why even for him, it might be the best thing for him to go

I think that’s all speculative… I think the facts speak for themselves and this what you are speculating wouldn’t even be questioned if he did well.

He was not questioned about his nationality when he came from Celtic… I remember him being lauded … a little too much actually. So like I’ve said previously he’s Australian when he’s doing ok, but when he’s not doing ok then it’s xenophobic to assume that he’s Australian and that’s why the media have jumped on him.

What I can agree with though is the media is sly, snide and sinister and will throw in anything with all angles to sell news (ironically mostly owned by an Australian in Rupert murdoch and co). Not just him as he is Australian but any manger with any back ground.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Those voting figures can't be right, surely?

75 sectionings or people just decided to take time out and go and enjoy their local non-league club until we get a professional back in charge?

 

[Junior19]

I think Postecoglu will leave and carry the burden of anger for some time. I believe one day, probably a few years down the line, people will have softened and recognised what he did during an era of enormous difficulties....it's a bit like how suddenly I see people begging for Poch's return; yes, that's right, some of them are the very same who could not wait to be rid of him.

It is fascinating how who you take over from (and who succeeds you) can have such an impact on how the general perception of you will be.
No comparison at all on the managers, but just in recent times, we have Jol taking over from the abyssmal Tackleberry-clone and he is universally loved and hailed. Yet he had no trophies. He was succeeded by Juande Ramos, who did win silverware. Ramos hardly gets a mention, apart from "2 points from 7 games".

If (and when) Postecoglou goes, I for one will most certainly have a positive view on his tenure. I can't remember a time when we had so many excellent prospects coming through in decades. Regardless of who gets to steer this magnificent ship that is Tottenham Hotspur next season we will benefit from that in a massive way.
Unless of course, we do as we always do, throw the baby out with the bathwater, and hire a five-at-the-back low-block merchant again...