Andre Villas-Boas - Head Coach

[braineclipse]

I think we need to start asking measured questions about our continuous pattern of conceding late goals. Not on a rant by any means, but we need to ask the following:

- If recent concessions of late goals can be down to fatigur from the Europa league exertions, how can it be explained in the early part of the season before the EL started? I.e in ALL of our first 4 league games?
- How do you explain it in the Panathinaikps and Norwich cup games? (Other than defensive subs?)
- Are we making big assumptions that it will all be solved when Parker, Kaboul and BAE return? Or even Moutinho (or that ilk) join us? Remember this pattern of late goals happened at Chelski as well under AVB, and he had the likes of Ramires and Mata to help control possession...
- Is AVB far too 'Italian' in his approach, a la Capello or Benitez? Does he have to become a bit more gung-ho (i.e. attack being sometimes the best fopr of defence and all that...)

I'm really looking at the very staunch pro-AVB posters to discuss tehse points, such as THFCSteff, Braineclipse and the like; I'd especially appreciate your views on this issue as well as anybody else

(btw, I'm mainly pro-AVB, but I'm starting to look at wether actualy there are some things that we will have to just come to accept..)

A couple of points from my point of view.

1. Before the Everton game we had 4 wins in a row, 3 wins in a row in the league. In several of those games we were ahead and then put under pressure. People are very quick to jump back to the conclusions that were made earlier this season (we have a problem with conceding late goals) based just on one game while ignoring the games that point in the other direction.

2. There is a luck factor, or coincidence factor at play here. I've made this point in the past too. We can list dozens of different aspects of football games, we're bound to be among the worst at some of these just by pure chance unless we're Barcelona-style dominant. Manchester United have gone behind in 15 games or something silly like that this season, has Ferguson lost it completely when it comes to telling his players how to start a game? Or is there perhaps some coincidence at play here?

3. Connected to the previous point, I thought we did really well towards the end against Everton up until the 1-1 goal. I have seen some strange posts on here about us being terrible again or something similar when for me I thought we did really well. People are bound to criticize whatever actions the manager took when the mistake was made and the game lost, but had the manager done something else and a different (or similar) mistake had been made he would have been criticized for those decisions. Taking off Lennon was the only decision that seemed strange to me at the time, but I'm guessing he was either exhausted or feeling an injury.

4. I don't buy that AVB is too "Italian" in his approach at all. Bringing on more defensive players towards the end when one up against a league rival away from home is pretty standard for just about any manager in the world.

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For me a bit of realism is needed here, people are expecting a lot, but with the injuries we have our back 4 this season has very often been two very young players (Walker and Caulker), one player that is past his best (Gallas) and a centre back being played out of position. We've also been bedding in a new goalkeeper and we've been without real cover in the centre of midfield because of injuries.

Mistakes will happen pretty much regardless of what the manager does, Caulker is a massive talent, but he's young and only has a season of PL football behind him. Walker is still very inconsistent defensively. We've obviously been missing Ekotto and Gallas (although pretty good against Everton) has been shaky this season.

 

[Rossi22]

Must say AVB puts too much trust in the youngsters and substitutions. Thought it was risky to bring on the inexperienced Falque against Everton when we were defending the 1-0 lead. Also, there is the unwritten formula in football that says you don't change your team when you are leading 1-0. Making substitutions when you are only leading 1-0 will always unsettle the team. But can understand why AVB had to make those changes as some players were getting tired from playing against Panathinaikos. Unfortunately, it let Everton took advantage of the situation.

No one can say what effect that substitution had but I read earlier that the 30 minutes prior to Defoe going off he completed just THREE passes, obviously AVB thought that Falque would be able to hold onto and use the ball better than Jermain, which he did as he completed 7 passes in about as many minutes. Ultimately, whether it was Defoe on the field or Falque, it was Caulker who ignored Lloris' call for the equaliser.

 

[braineclipse]

No one can say what effect that substitution had but I read earlier that the 30 minutes prior to Defoe going off he completed just THREE passes, obviously AVB thought that Falque would be able to hold onto and use the ball better than Jermain, which he did as he completed 7 passes in about as many minutes. Ultimately, whether it was Defoe on the field or Falque, it was Caulker who ignored Lloris' call for the equaliser.

Spot on. Falque seemed to me to help us keep possession and he was of course also a fresh pair of legs that could come on and help out our midfield, something Ade and Defoe had struggled with.

Seemed like a good decision at the time, in hindsight it also seems like a good decision.

 

[Modric THFC]

Must say AVB puts too much trust in the youngsters and substitutions. Thought it was risky to bring on the inexperienced Falque against Everton when we were defending the 1-0 lead. Also, there is the unwritten formula in football that says you don't change your team when you are leading 1-0. Making substitutions when you are only leading 1-0 will always unsettle the team. But can understand why AVB had to make those changes as some players were getting tired from playing against Panathinaikos. Unfortunately, it let Everton took advantage of the situation.

If he hadn't made the subs and we lost 2-1 there would be someone else complaining AVB never makes subs.
Lucky he was playing 442 or there'd be a raft of people saying we lost because we weren't playing the traditional 1970s and 80s English formation.

 

[DHSF]

Steff made a point in the Everton thread but ill respond to it here...

I agree Harry had a better squad I agree he had more time etc but when I hear that we signed Dembele as the replacement for Modric (which it has been said) then peopl esaying that we havent replaced Modric as an excuse for the panic that sets in our play - I do wonder.

I dont think Dembele was EVER the replacement for Modric and dont think he is even that good a passer what he is brilliant at is ball carrying - 30 - 50 yards away from goal.

So this brings me on to my next question

If we need a Modric type player and its obvious it is Moutinho then are we going to be a panic team till we get in someone like Modric i.e. Moutinho? that cant right can it? I mean so if we dont get that elusive player are we just going to harp on about this one excuse?

I hope AVB doesnt think like that and he does something about it. I am over the harry thing but people criticised Harry for being tactically naive/inept/limited - is AVB the same in that he is very specific and there is no flexibility in his repertoire of tactics that will allow us to hold on to the ball or not concede the late late goals? If his favored formation is centred on one player i.e. Moutinho (or alike) then thats a recipe for disaster as what happens if a moutinho gets injured? Moutinhos of this world are costly.

 

[Modric THFC]

Spot on. Falque seemed to me to help us keep possession and he was of course also a fresh pair of legs that could come on and help out our midfield, something Ade and Defoe had struggled with.

Seemed like a good decision at the time, in hindsight it also seems like a good decision.

Having downloaded and rewatched the match, we were looking a bit rocky after Dembele went off up until Falque came on for Defoe.
Then we kept possession much better and ultimately Everton were forced to hit it long and hope for the best which sadly worked.

 

[thfcsteff]

Steff made a point in the Everton thread but ill respond to it here...

I agree Harry had a better squad I agree he had more time etc but when I hear that we signed Dembele as the replacement for Modric (which it has been said) then peopl esaying that we havent replaced Modric as an excuse for the panic that sets in our play - I do wonder.

I dont think Dembele was EVER the replacement for Modric and dont think he is even that good a passer what he is brilliant at is ball carrying - 30 - 50 yards away from goal.

So this brings me on to my next question

If we need a Modric type player and its obvious it is Moutinho then are we going to be a panic team till we get in someone like Modric i.e. Moutinho? that cant right can it? I mean so if we dont get that elusive player are we just going to harp on about this one excuse?

I hope AVB doesnt think like that and he does something about it. I am over the harry thing but people criticised Harry for being tactically naive/inept/limited - is AVB the same in that he is very specific and there is no flexibility in his repertoire of tactics that will allow us to hold on to the ball or not concede the late late goals? If his favored formation is centred on one player i.e. Moutinho (or alike) then thats a recipe for disaster as what happens if a moutinho gets injured? Moutinhos of this world are costly.

To be clear...I didn't use it as an excuse for this weekend, but it could be viewed as a legitimate one this season. Frankly, I thought we were very VERY unlucky on Sunday. As i said countless times before, Caulker made a mistake and it actually turned the game on it's head (this after the lad had helped snuff Fellani and the scousers largely out of the game). In fact, i thought we looked exceedingly comfortable in the last 15 minutes. I saw NO PANIC at all until Caulker ignored/didn't hear Lloris. THEN we came undone. THAT was very disappointing, but again, the winner had an element of fluke about it. I wonder what would've happened if Sig's shot had gone in off the bar?

We have managed to circumvent the vital dependency on a Modders-type player, but yeah, it would be fantastic to get Moutinho and really see what AVB could do with his number one target (I suspect he will have to shop elsewhere due to the complications of buying that player).

I maintain that with the injuries we've had, AVB has done exceedingly well to have us joint 4th. if we stay within 3-6 points of 4th this Xmas (or nail it down) and Levy backs him in Jan, it could be very very very good.

 

[thfcsteff]

Having downloaded and rewatched the match, we were looking a bit rocky after Dembele went off up until Falque came on for Defoe.
Then we kept possession much better and ultimately Everton were forced to hit it long and hope for the best which sadly worked.

This. The slightly better looking Stoke struck again...

 

[Spurs7891]

If he hadn't made the subs and we lost 2-1 there would be someone else complaining AVB never makes subs.
Lucky he was playing 442 or there'd be a raft of people saying we lost because we weren't playing the traditional 1970s and 80s English formation.

Exactly. Poor AVB. He has got so many enemies who can't wait for him to fail. You know they will blame him for whatever he does, unless we win. Steve McMahon on ESPN blamed it on AVB's "negative" substitutions for us always conceding goals in the last 10 mins. This despite the fact, we scored after replacing Lennon with Hudd against Everton.

 

[Mr. Green]

Exactly. Poor AVB. He has got so many enemies who can't wait for him to fail. You know they will blame him for whatever he does, unless we win.

Struck out "unless we win".

Well, football365 questioned the sub of Dembele, but had Sigurdsson scored, you know what, they would probably hail AVB as a master tactican, two subs, and one assist and a goal. The difference between an egghead and master tactican is just 3-inch.
http://www.football365.com/faves/8321576/F365-s-Premier-League-Winners-Losers

 

[Spurs7891]

Struck out "unless we win".

Well, football365 questioned the sub of Dembele, but had Sigurdsson scored, you know what, they would probably hail AVB as a master tactican, two subs, and one assist and a goal. The difference between an egghead and master tactican is just 3-inch.
http://www.football365.com/faves/8321576/F365-s-Premier-League-Winners-Losers

I think AVB is fully aware of that.

------------------------------------

Spurs boss Andre Villas-Boas says he is only a few defeats from criticism

Last Updated: December 9, 2012 3:12pm

Tottenham boss Andre Villas-Boas admits he will only ever be a few defeats away from being branded a 'donkey' by supporters.

The Portuguese boss is currently on a roll with his north London troops as they look to close the gap on his former employees, Chelsea, in third-place with a win at Everton on Sunday.

"The fans are the best critics of performances. When they don't like it, they criticise you. When they like you, they congratulate you."

Spurs having galloped into the last 32 of the Europa League and the turnaround in Villas-Boas' fortunes has been phenomenal following his ill-fated 256-day spell in charge at Stamford Bridge last season.

And Villas-Boas said in The Sun: "The fans are the best critics of performances. When they don't like it, they criticise you. When they like you, they congratulate you.

"At the moment it is positive because we are on a good run. But everything can change.

"In this business we go from being the best to being donkeys very quickly. That is the nature of the game and management."

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[DHSF]

To be clear...I didn't use it as an excuse for this weekend, but it could be viewed as a legitimate one this season. Frankly, I thought we were very VERY unlucky on Sunday. As i said countless times before, Caulker made a mistake and it actually turned the game on it's head (this after the lad had helped snuff Fellani and the scousers largely out of the game). In fact, i thought we looked exceedingly comfortable in the last 15 minutes. I saw NO PANIC at all until Caulker ignored/didn't hear Lloris. THEN we came undone. THAT was very disappointing, but again, the winner had an element of fluke about it. I wonder what would've happened if Sig's shot had gone in off the bar?

We have managed to circumvent the vital dependency on a Modders-type player, but yeah, it would be fantastic to get Moutinho and really see what AVB could do with his number one target (I suspect he will have to shop elsewhere due to the complications of buying that player).

I maintain that with the injuries we've had, AVB has done exceedingly well to have us joint 4th. if we stay within 3-6 points of 4th this Xmas (or nail it down) and Levy backs him in Jan, it could be very very very good.

He has done well no doubt (although I think some of the issues are recurring such as late goals, poor football, sitting back etc).

I dont think we have circumvented the modric dependency because we still dont keep the ball and that could be due to a number of factors - poor footballer? maybe our sitting back hinders our ability to hold on to the ball as we have no one to pass to when we actually get the ball? or maybe its a lack of mentality - there are a number of factors involved.

The frustrating thing is a few tweaks and we could be up there - AVB just has to implement those tweaks.

As for the moutinho thing - hopefully Levy pulls it off

 

[braineclipse]

He has done well no doubt (although I think some of the issues are recurring such as late goals, poor football, sitting back etc).

I dont think we have circumvented the modric dependency because we still dont keep the ball and that could be due to a number of factors - poor footballer? maybe our sitting back hinders our ability to hold on to the ball as we have no one to pass to when we actually get the ball? or maybe its a lack of mentality - there are a number of factors involved.

The frustrating thing is a few tweaks and we could be up there - AVB just has to implement those tweaks.

As for the moutinho thing - hopefully Levy pulls it off

I agree fully that we very much depended on Modric last season, I was in in some rather long lasting debates on here about just how important Modric was for us last season.

Were you expecting AVB to get us past that after losing Modric and having some severe injury problems in less than half a season?

We've seen in the past just how much it can hurt us and other side to lose the best player in a side.

 

[DHSF]

I agree fully that we very much depended on Modric last season, I was in in some rather long lasting debates on here about just how important Modric was for us last season.

Were you expecting AVB to get us past that after losing Modric and having some severe injury problems in less than half a season?

We've seen in the past just how much it can hurt us and other side to lose the best player in a side.

I didnt expect it - to be honest I expected us to buy a replacement but obviously certain personnel fudged up in doing so. I digress though.

Ultimately I wouldnt have expected it but if the criticism aimed at Harry was that he was tactically naiive because he relied on a 442 with certain personnel - then isnt AVB kind of doing the same? Just a different formation?

Im not convinced we were totally dependent on Modric though because in the past he was playing on the left yet we did well and in the past he was injured and we did fairly well. We were dependent to an extent im not denying that but not 'totally' dependent.

 

[braineclipse]

I didnt expect it - to be honest I expected us to buy a replacement but obviously certain personnel fudged up in doing so. I digress though.

Ultimately I wouldnt have expected it but if the criticism aimed at Harry was that he was tactically naiive because he relied on a 442 with certain personnel - then isnt AVB kind of doing the same? Just a different formation?

Im not convinced we were totally dependent on Modric though because in the past he was playing on the left yet we did well and in the past he was injured and we did fairly well. We were dependent to an extent im not denying that but not 'totally' dependent.

I think Dembele is a pretty good Modric replacement, different strengths and weaknesses, but can fill a similar role in the side imo.

When Modric played on the left he drifted inside a lot and was pretty much a playmaker anyway, he always looked good on the left imo, while he looked wasted on the right where he couldn't cut inside as effectively. Last season I thought we looked poor whenever Modric was injured personally.

I'm not getting dragged into another Redknapp debate

I don't think AVB is naive, he is just still very early in his Spurs career, he has only had one transfer window to work in and as previously mentioned he's had quite a few injuries. He played a typical 4-3-3 formation at Chelsea, while with us it's been more of a 4-2-3-1 changing to a 4-2-2 at times. He doesn't seem to rely just on one formation, he also switched it up to 3 at the back mid game against Arsenal.

We are too dependent on Dembele, that's an issue that needs sorting out. I think we should bring someone in in January, long term maybe Carroll can be the answer, but he's not ready at this point. I feel convinced that this is something AVB is well aware of and planning to do something about. I can't imagine that he sees Sandro and Parker together as the answer and he seemed willing to let Hudd go out on a loan in the summer, to me that screams of us working to bring in someone new at the time. Hopefully that work will continue in January (or already actually).

I don't think AVB is tactically naive at all, to me he seems very tactically astute. Things haven't worked out perfectly and there's plenty of stuff to work on both in the transfer market and with our current players, but for me he should be given the time he needs to work on those things while receiving credit for what he has already done.

 

[DHSF]

No no Harry debate at all - like i said in the post above - ive moved on and most have.

I would though say that Dembele is no modric replacement. Modric and dembele are great ball carriers but Modric is a passer he can pass. I havent seen much of Dembeles passing ability. He plays it neat and tidy which is good but need someone who has that vision. Not sure Dembele has that in his locker.

 

[braineclipse]

No no Harry debate at all - like i said in the post above - ive moved on and most have.

I would though say that Dembele is no modric replacement. Modric and dembele are great ball carriers but Modric is a passer he can pass. I havent seen much of Dembeles passing ability. He plays it neat and tidy which is good but need someone who has that vision. Not sure Dembele has that in his locker.

His passing is normally good (although he was a bit wasteful against Everton). His ability to create space for himself to find a pass is very important, that gives him the ability to play balls into the final third with real purpose. He did so against Everton iirc. He won't be playing "those" passes that Modric made with seeming ease consistently, very few players will. But he still does a lot of what Modric did for us, primarily for me bringing the ball from the back into the final third while also contributing with some creativity in the final third. I would love it if we brought in someone like Moutinho to complement Dembele and give us some real options. Been some cheaper and perhaps more realistic names mentioned in the transfer rumour discussions.

 

[DHSF]

His passing is normally good (although he was a bit wasteful against Everton). His ability to create space for himself to find a pass is very important, that gives him the ability to play balls into the final third with real purpose. He did so against Everton iirc. He won't be playing "those" passes that Modric made with seeming ease consistently, very few players will. But he still does a lot of what Modric did for us, primarily for me bringing the ball from the back into the final third while also contributing with some creativity in the final third. I would love it if we brought in someone like Moutinho to complement Dembele and give us some real options. Been some cheaper and perhaps more realistic names mentioned in the transfer rumour discussions.

I need to visit there I think. I cant think of many options bar Moutinho in terms of someone who really reminds me of Modric.

 

[Jordinho]

I notice the polarising has moved on from those not being delighted with Redknapp to those that aren't unhappy with AVB. Why this need to create camps?

I keep reading some absolute crap about excuses and how anything but top 4 is a failure and I almost can't be bothered to respond anymore. These aren't excuses, they are facts. We've suffered with injuries, especially at the back. We've lost players that were integral to the first XI and important characters in the squad. We have a lot of new players and are promoting youth to the first team, a settling in process that has not been helped by injuries to some of our most experienced players. Oh, and we are currently joint 4th and the third highest scoring team in the league.

You don't think missing Parker, Kaboul and BAE while trying to integrate Caulker, Vertonghen, Naughton and Lloris, constantly having to reshuffle our defence every time someone gets injured, means we might struggle at times?

I could go on, but now I got bored. Besides, I seriously doubt it will make any difference.

 

[parklane1]

I notice the polarising has moved on from those not being delighted with Redknapp to those that aren't unhappy with AVB. Why this need to create camps?

I keep reading some absolute crap about excuses and how anything but top 4 is a failure and I almost can't be bothered to respond anymore. These aren't excuses, they are facts. We've suffered with injuries, especially at the back. We've lost players that were integral to the first XI and important characters in the squad. We have a lot of new players and are promoting youth to the first team, a settling in process that has not been helped by injuries to some of our most experienced players. Oh, and we are currently joint 4th and the third highest scoring team in the league.

You don't think missing Parker, Kaboul and BAE while trying to integrate Caulker, Vertonghen, Naughton and Lloris, constantly having to reshuffle our defence every time someone gets injured, means we might struggle at times?

I could go on, but now I got bored. Besides, I seriously doubt it will make any difference.

=D> =D>