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Andre Villas-Boas - Head Coach

Some of you have questioned my viewpoint that fans can see things that the manager can't as naive. I mean, how can somebody possibly be able to see something that a professional who actually does it for a living can't? Only an idiot who plays Football Manager could think that.

Except that argument falls flat on its face for two key reasons. Firstly, because if that were true then the entire management consultancy industry wouldn't exist. Sometimes, a fresh pair of eyes looking at things from the outside, without preconceptions and other factors that distort peoples perceptions of things, you can actually spot an awful lot. And secondly, because it assumes that this professional is actually good at their job. How many times have you seen on The Apprentice where the accountant fudges up the figures, or the salesman gets outsold by somebody who doesn't work in sales. Now obviously I can't claim to know more about electronics than a professional electrical engineer, but football management is an art not a science. There's no school to learn about this sort of stuff. You just go in, do what you think works based on your experiences and understanding of football and people, and try to be better at it than anyone else.

I know that football managers do a phenomenal amount of work outside of matches. Training, youth development, board meetings etc. But there are plenty of examples of somebody who was living and breathing this stuff not spotting the obvious for one reason or another. When Arnesen signed Carrick for us instead of Jan Koller who Santini had wanted, Santini described him as a "5th choice defensive midfielder", behind Pedro Mendes, Sean Davis, Michael Brown...and of course Jamie Redknapp. Santini's Spurs team really struggled to create chances - we had scored just 6 goals in 11 league games when he left. I wasn't the only common fan who could see we were making a big mistake in not playing him. When Santini resigned, we replaced him with a manager who realised that he had on his hands the most talented central midfielder we'd had since Gascoigne. His first move was to build his team around him, and hey presto, we became a team playing attractive, possession based attacking football, and a team that hadn't even finished in the top 8 for a decade challenged for a Champions League spot the following season. We'll never know Santini's reasons for not rating Carrick - probably because he heard he was a defensive midfielder, thought he was too scrawny to be your Roy Keane type and resented the fact that he was there, which blinded him to Carrick's true qualities. But it's a clear example of a manager, who saw more of the inside of our football club than any of us ever did, of not being able to see something us common fans could, for one reason or another.

Another example is Glenn Hoddle's use of the 3-5-2 formation. It's something that worked well in his early years as a manager, however it fell out of mainstream use as 4-3-3 became prominent. Reason being - if the opposition has wing forwards, your wing-backs are the ones who need to mark them, but if they are pinned back by marking the wing forwards, you have no width to support your attacking play. If they go forward, like Hoddle wanted them to, you get horrifically exposed down the flanks. The formation also requires a defensive midfielder to work, which we didn't have, and didn't sign. When we were regularly getting spanked in the latter part of Hoddle's reign, this was obvious to many a fan, but he never changed his ways, and it cost him his job. Pleat came in, and made a load of mistakes of his own (Poyet and Anderton in central midfield FFS!), but he picked a stable formation and signed Michael Brown to cover the gaps, and he managed to keep us up. Did Hoddle learn his lesson? No, he persisted with the formation at Wolves and got sacked from there too. Again - common fans could see this brick, the professional couldn't.

As for AVB, sure, he sees things we don't inside the club. But, he's made undeniable mistakes this season, that were clearly and obviously wrong. I'm pretty sure the reason he's picked Gallas so much is because he was a big personality in the dressing room and on the training ground - an inspiration to the younger players. Now we as fans don't see that side of things. What I have been able to judge him on is purely what we see on the pitch, which at the end of the day, is all that really matters. And what have we seen from Gallas this season? Slow, cumbersome displays, panicky clearances and a complete lack of composure. He was a top defender in his time, but I just don't see how it took people so long to realise that he's finished at this level. I remember reading once, I think Shearer said it, that Shola Ameobi was Saudi Sportswashing Machine's best player in training. Well guess what happened when it got to the actual matches. Regardless of his logic and reasonings, surely everyone can see that he's made some big big mistakes this season, mistakes that lots of common fans would not have made.

But hey, if you'd like to subscribe to the school of thought that all football managers are geniuses and that us common fans can never spot things that they can, then fair enough, you're entitled to your opinion and all, I just wonder why exactly you would post on a message board if us mere mortals don't know a thing?

Using The Apprentice as an example doesn't make your argument any less convincing, it's a gameshow designed to make them all look like idiots under pressure. Football Management may not be a university course but it doesn't mean that they don't know more knowledge than you, just because the mode of entry is different.

Carrick was a great player. I'm 100% sure Santini knew exactly what kind of player Carrick was, but he was trying to do something else with the team. Arnesen was trying to do something different, probably following a brief from Levy to find talented young English players at value for money prices. Santini was implementing a dull, dour style of football and there was obvious conflict, and an obvious power struggle as Steff says. Because Santini didn't play Carrick, it doesn't mean the fans saw something he didn't, it just means he was trying to do something else tactically - and also trying to exert his own authority over the club in a power play. There are so many different powers at play in a football club, and it isn't as simple as what one person things is the 'obvious' best decision. In that example, you had the pressures of Levy, Arnesen and Santini all wanting different things. It wasn't because fans could see something they all couldn't. In fact using the examples just proves the point of people like me - you didn't know what kind of discussions and struggles were going on behind the scenes. Yes we can say that struggles are bad and an agreeable stream from board to pitch will be better for a football club, but it's like saying all humans can see war isn't a good thing. Yeah, we know that. It doesn't make us any cleverer though, because there are considerations world leaders are making and we simply don't know the details of them.

Hoddle's use of a 3-5-2...again, it's not because the obvious, sure fire route to success would be to not use it. As an abstract example, if the choice was between playing 3-5-2 one season and finishing 15th, but the next season, because the players were more familiar, because you were able to sign more players suited to the system and because you had more luck with injuries you finished 4th, it would have been worth it. I'm not saying that would have definitely been the case with Hoddle, but that's the thinking behind it. Taking a step back to take 2 forward is a common occurrence in football and one we are going through with AVB now. There's an argument to say that it's worth taking the pain of implementing a new system in order to be greater than the sum of the team's individual parts once they are more confident with it. Doesn't mean Hoddle was 'wrong', it just means there are many different ways of going about preparing a football team.

Under AVB, it's the same thing. Gallas is probably being played because AVB is wanting to utilise his leadership qualities, his experience, his tactical awareness at a time he is trying to implement a new system. He is also building a team in an intelligent way, in the opposite vein of how QPR have gone about it for example. Their way was to sign the best players they thought they could, and it would all come together. AVB's idea is to make everyone in the squad feel wanted, whether that be a kid that's been hovering around the reserves for years in Ryan Mason, a guy that's won countless medals and played GHod knows how many Champions League games in William Gallas or a 4th choice goalkeeper that we've kept on after a serious motorbike accident. He played Cudicini at Carlise even though Lloris needed games because he wants to make everyone feel involved, he doesn't want anyone coming into the club thinking they have nothing to give. In the case of Gallas, an experienced and influential player like that especially needs to be utilised because he's the one with a winning mentality that can rub off on other members of the squad.

So the point I'm making is, yes you are right in saying that not all professional managers will know every right answer, because there simply isn't one. But Management Consultants still have particular expertise in their industry. And football managers still know the theory behind what they are trying to do, even if it isn't backed up by empirical research. There's many ways of going about it getting success in football, and I'd say the ones that do it are the lucky ones, because they have had all the circumstances align perfectly for them. There's so many competing powers that sometimes a manager won't get it all his own way. Players can do something different, the chairman can do something he doesn't want, a sporting director, an injury, a bad ref, an unlucky bounce. But I'm pretty certain that all manager's decisions have rational thought behind them, and in theory can be successful, it just depends on the circumstances as to whether they are.

That's why good managers are sacked from previous jobs. That's why good managers have suffered relegations even. And that's why unknown inexperienced managers can achieve great things. Harry and AVB both have an idea of how to play the game and manage a team. Neither is wrong but the power and will of Levy is taking us in one direction. But you can bet that all managers almost certainly see everything that a fan does, and if they choose to do something different from a fan it's because they are trying to complete a bigger plan. Phrases like 'I hope AVB knew the reasons as to why it worked' are completely cringeworthy. You can bet AVB has made mistakes, but even the very best managers make mistakes, because the point about football is that there is no perfect way. But you can bet that when AVB had his time out of the game, the people he went to for real advice as to why it went wrong at Chelsea and what he should do in the future were respected people within the game that know what they are talking about, and not fans - because they don't really know what they are talking about. They don't know what goes on. And that's not an insult. I'm a fan. And I'm happy with that.
 
Not if they don't know what to look for, or don't know the tactical plan, or don't know what's been going on in training that week, or don't know which instructions from the coaches certain players are following.
This. It's why we have coaches supporting the manager and people carrying out analysis of every game at the club
 
This. It's why we have coaches supporting the manager and people carrying out analysis of every game at the club

I would venture that there's 100s of things each game that no fan has picked up on and wouldn't even consider a relevant occurrence, but that a member of the coaching team has considered absolutely vital to future improvement.
 
I would venture that there's 100s of things each game that no fan has picked up on and wouldn't even consider a relevant occurrence, but that a member of the coaching team has considered absolutely vital to future improvement.


I would disagree. The sheer number of fans make it extremely likely that at least one fan (likely more) somewhere has also thought what the coaches/manager think.


I see it somewhat like making a computer game. Sure the programmers are the experts, they will make the game, they will try and get rid of any issues. However as soon as the game is released to the general public the amount of time testing the programmers have done is insignificant to the playtime the customers have. So the customers are highly likely to find the errors simply due to the sheer number of hours spent.


Ok, let's assume training is what, 6 hours a day? that's like 42 hours a week roughly speaking. team of 5 coaches? So like 200 hours a week of the professionals watching the players and telling them what and how to do things.

A match is 1 1/2 hours. You'd need 130 people to watch a match for the 'leymen' to have spent the same time watching as the professionals.


How many people actually watch the match? A hell of a lot more.


Even with the extremely rough numbers i have used, you can see the amount of time spent watching the footballers by the fans far exceeds the amount of time they are watched by the professionals.
 
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I think the general argument is about thick and clever people. The truth is that clever managers win things and thick managers think that thick fans helped get them the sack
 
Using The Apprentice as an example doesn't make your argument any less convincing, it's a gameshow designed to make them all look like idiots under pressure. Football Management may not be a university course but it doesn't mean that they don't know more knowledge than you, just because the mode of entry is different.
...Phrases like 'I hope AVB knew the reasons as to why it worked' are completely cringeworthy. You can bet AVB has made mistakes, but even the very best managers make mistakes, because the point about football is that there is no perfect way. But you can bet that when AVB had his time out of the game, the people he went to for real advice as to why it went wrong at Chelsea and what he should do in the future were respected people within the game that know what they are talking about, and not fans - because they don't really know what they are talking about. They don't know what goes on. And that's not an insult. I'm a fan. And I'm happy with that.

That is a tremendously brilliant post, one of the best I have read anywhere for quite some time.
Your last point is one I have made before to people in real life. We have to try and know what we don't know, self-awareness of our unawareness. (Excuse the Rumsfeldism) And be content with that.
 
I would disagree. The sheer number of fans make it extremely likely that at least one fan (likely more) somewhere has also thought what the coaches/manager think.


I see it somewhat like making a computer game. Sure the programmers are the experts, they will make the game, they will try and get rid of any issues. However as soon as the game is released to the general public the amount of time testing the programmers have done is insignificant to the playtime the customers have. So the customers are highly likely to find the errors simply due to the sheer number of hours spent.


Ok, let's assume training is what, 6 hours a day? that's like 42 hours a week roughly speaking. team of 5 coaches? So like 200 hours a week of the professionals watching the players and telling them what and how to do things.

A match is 1 1/2 hours. You'd need 130 people to watch a match for the 'leymen' to have spent the same time watching as the professionals.


How many people actually watch the match? A hell of a lot more.


Even with the extremely rough numbers i have used, you can see the amount of time spent watching the footballers by the fans far exceeds the amount of time they are watched by the professionals.

I don't doubt a fan can spot something the coach has already thought of, I'm talking though of a fan 'spotting' something the coach didn't realise. It just doesn't work like that.

As a basic example, I didn't read one comment on here about how it looked like Dempsey was making runs at specific angles in order to receive better passes in the West Ham game, even though he then gives an interview saying that it's what he's been working on with the staff. Most fans just see he's had a better game, and put it down to settling in, getting more confidence, getting fitter etc. But we have no idea of the kind of runs he has been asked to make, when he is supposed to make them, who is supposed to have the ball when he makes which run, which player then takes up which other position that he leaves etc etc.
 
Good post. There are a couple of "old pros" on here who think they know everything but are consistently exposed under the slightest of examinations.


Quite. Of course, I have no idea who you're referring to, but without names (and therefore direction) I can only agree with you...
 
I don't doubt a fan can spot something the coach has already thought of, I'm talking though of a fan 'spotting' something the coach didn't realise. It just doesn't work like that.

As a basic example, I didn't read one comment on here about how it looked like Dempsey was making runs at specific angles in order to receive better passes in the West Ham game, even though he then gives an interview saying that it's what he's been working on with the staff. Most fans just see he's had a better game, and put it down to settling in, getting more confidence, getting fitter etc. But we have no idea of the kind of runs he has been asked to make, when he is supposed to make them, who is supposed to have the ball when he makes which run, which player then takes up which other position that he leaves etc etc.

This plays into other aspects, such as the Walker situation, Bale and his right foot, etc...the devil is in these details, and these details are constantly being tweaked. I think a few of us (yourself included) did say that Dempsey was not playing where he played for Fulham. I thought Daws was interesting yesterday in so much as I don't remember a 90 minutes he's played where he launched the ball LESS than Sunday. He looked consistently to play the ball shorter, on the floor or simply; this would be one very simple illustration of AVB's influence.

I accept the point that out of 30-40,000 people someone is going to be able to see the same stuff, indeed a few, but there is still critical information missing as to what informs certain decisions and choices. That's why I made my initial comment (and doubtless why you followed up with a quite superb breakdown post).
 
This ties in somewhat to the Neville phenomenon on Sky Sports whereby professional insight is being brought to bear on topics.
It may not always be new things that he says, but it is often enough from a different perspective to appreciate that we have a rather limited viewpoint.
 
This ties in somewhat to the Neville phenomenon on Sky Sports whereby professional insight is being brought to bear on topics.
It may not always be new things that he says, but it is often enough from a different perspective to appreciate that we have a rather limited viewpoint.

I think he's been excellent, agreed.
 
I had a very brief look into the the world of premiership coaching by means of a coaching seminar given by the WBA coaches to my local club. I can tell you that even after that one brief exposure to the coaching methods at the baggies I was astounded. The attention to detail is far far beyond what I imagined. They had pro-zone data for every player at the club, kids included, for every match that they played while at the club, all analysed up the wazoo. If you think they don't see what we see then you are wrong. They see.
 
Tottenham boss AVB hails positive Freund impact
November 27, 2012, 11:05 pm tweet0

Tottenham boss Andre Villas-Boas is delighted with the support he's received from assistant coach Steffen Freund.

The former Spurs midfielder has made a positive impact since returning to White Hart Lane.

"He is very important in the dugout and inspires everyone. He always comes in with a smile, a very positive man," said AVB. "His passion for the game is immense.

"We are having a great time with him. His football knowledge is very good. He also has an eye on the development of the young players and he shares his experiences with them."

-------------------------------------------

Maybe Freund is not all that bad afterall.
 
I had a very brief look into the the world of premiership coaching by means of a coaching seminar given by the WBA coaches to my local club. I can tell you that even after that one brief exposure to the coaching methods at the baggies I was astounded. The attention to detail is far far beyond what I imagined. They had pro-zone data for every player at the club, kids included, for every match that they played while at the club, all analysed up the wazoo. If you think they don't see what we see then you are wrong. They see.

good post and a true one, there is so much that goes on in professional clubs that MOST fans have not got a clue about.
 
Graham Roberts has a change of heart regarding AVB after being invited by Levy and Donna Cullen down to Hotspur Way to meet with AVB and the players

http://www.talksport.co.uk/radio/hawksbee-and-jacobs/121127/roberts-tottenham-players-are-positive-about-villas-boas-186267?

Haha, I've just been reading back some of Roberts' comments since AVB got the job. From saying he needs a personality change to this, it's quite nice. And it bodes very well because obviously if Roberts, an outspoken critic can be impressed with the set up and change his mind, then it means the set up is really good and everyone is behind him.
 
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