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Andre Villas-Boas - Head Coach
- Thread starter Bale
- Start date
That is what is keeping me going. We have lost a lot of quality compared to last season as others have said but we still have Bale.
SpurMeUp
Les Howe
...and Lennon. Been as good as Bale for us so far this season? Probably.
Sandro, Vertonghen, Caulker also worth a mention.
NaijaSpurs
Les Ferdinand
And therein lies the rub
I'm not sure if that was intended as sarcasm, but its something I pretty much think is true. We haven't been any good this season to put it bluntly, but we have good individuals who can defend or attack and do their job. When AVB settles on a system to suit the players we should add the domination of games to good results and could be back up to our level of last season. We have had some very easy fixtures though so possibly a bit behind on expected points from those games.
Just looked at the possession stats... last 5 games... 48, 42, 56, 26!!, 43... i'd say its quite clear we are a counter attack team and thats maybe what AVB wants, not sure what gutterboy is talking about.
Just found the stats from the same 5 games last season (although i didnt know who to use as a substitute for Southampton, so I used Norwich as they were last seasons promoted runners up - either way they are better than saints).... anyway 64, 56, 59, 40, 58 - so... speaks for itself really. I thought that would be the case, I think gutterboy needs a memory test.
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RVP, Mata, Tevez, Bale..
Superted
Jonathan Woodgate
It wasn't sarcasm at all.
If TMK was still around, he'd refer to his dossier and find that on 27th July 2012 at 3:45am (your time), I would have posted something like my expectations for this season were a slow start and that 7th or 8th would be a pass mark. However, the big "but" in all of this was that the second half of the season had to be better than the first half, such that you could see the improvement taking shape and having a good run leading into the next season.
I think we're seeing that, but the points accumulated doesn't reflect that at all. Okay, we've played some poor teams, but we've also beaten Man U. From memory per Jordinho's thread we're about even on last year against the same opponents. Our main rivals for top 4 as people would have expected (Arsenal, Liverpool, Saudi Sportswashing Machine) are all behind on last year, significantly so.
If TMK was still around, he'd refer to his dossier and find that on 27th July 2012 at 3:45am (your time), I would have posted something like my expectations for this season were a slow start and that 7th or 8th would be a pass mark. However, the big "but" in all of this was that the second half of the season had to be better than the first half, such that you could see the improvement taking shape and having a good run leading into the next season.
I think we're seeing that, but the points accumulated doesn't reflect that at all. Okay, we've played some poor teams, but we've also beaten Man U. From memory per Jordinho's thread we're about even on last year against the same opponents. Our main rivals for top 4 as people would have expected (Arsenal, Liverpool, Saudi Sportswashing Machine) are all behind on last year, significantly so.
People have forgotten the awful football we played under Harry, when Crouch played.
We might not have played fantastic football so far this season, although we have played some good stuff .
But it should not be forgotten that with Bale, Modric and VDV we played a high ball game to Crouch for a lot in the 09/10 season. Harry also wanted to buy Carroll and very probably would have tried to get him on lone this season, he also wanted Kenywn Jones.
I don't think that is AVB style of football and that he would have considered players like that.
So overall I think we will get better football under AVB. He is not going to play the hoof, something that Harry did far too much.
Originally posted by Colin Fishwick
We might not have played fantastic football so far this season, although we have played some good stuff .
But it should not be forgotten that with Bale, Modric and VDV we played a high ball game to Crouch for a lot in the 09/10 season. Harry also wanted to buy Carroll and very probably would have tried to get him on lone this season, he also wanted Kenywn Jones.
I don't think that is AVB style of football and that he would have considered players like that.
So overall I think we will get better football under AVB. He is not going to play the hoof, something that Harry did far too much.
Originally posted by Colin Fishwick
SpurMeUp
Les Howe
Granted Bale is a beast with attributes that allow him to dominate.'world class' whatever that means. But its a team sport, and Lennon has been just a crucial to our wins this season, probably as much so as Bale.
Total rubbish really. Football was great under Harry, even with Crouch in the team. Yes there were some poor displays with Crouch up front, but there were also the Inter Milan sort of games with Crouch playing. Harry also recognised that Crouch was a temp solution until we could get someone better, which we did with Adebayor. Then last season the football was fantastic, I think people have forgotten how good. On my stat finding mission I was actually surprised to see even the last 10 games we dominated possession - some games with 60 or 70 % and only drew. We have 60% in a stupid amount of games, we really did dominated teams last season with possession football - this is our aim, to get back to that level. From what I saw only Emirates Marketing Project, Arsenal and Man Utd (once) had more possession than us, in the first 9 games we've already had less than 50% in more games than the whole of last.
DubaiSpur
Ian Walker
Key point being penetration. Our possession was perfect for the opposition, because they settled into a defensive position outside the box and dared us to get through them. Which we failed to do regularly. Much of the possession I remember us having was based on Modric and Parker/Sandro cycling it endlessly in front of the opposition defenders, before giving it to Bale/Lennon on the wing, who would instantly put in a cross that would be easily cleared and fall to one of our defenders on the half-way line, at which point the whole exercise would start again. 10/11 was a prime example of this lack of a cutting edge.
AVB's system is based on drawing the opposition towards us, making them take up risky positions and leave space in behind their midfielders. Then when we get the ball, we can break at speed. We've seen a lot more running at the defence compared to last season, which is the result of these tactics. We've also seen Bale and Lennon convert from orthodox wingers to roving inside-forwards, so that's also a difference. Combine those two, and we look more penetrative than we did last season, and Defoe's height (which severly inhibited us with the whole endless crossing thing under Harry) is less of a draw-back, and conversely, Ade's lack of work-rate (which severely inhibits us when we're trying to pressure the oppo up front) is more of a problem than it was under Harry.
Dominating teams with possession means nothing when the ball stays resolutely in front of the opponent's back four. That was the chief problem with 'those days' under Harry, because we also needed some sort of tactical quirk to surprise the opposition and force them into conceding, and we quite often didn't have that. Also, I'd wager that we'd have a lot more possession this season if Modric and VdV were still available to AVB, or even if Dembele was available for more games.
markysimmo
Johnny nice-tits
Totally this..
Also the way he spoke in the interview afterwards by dedicating the win to a club officials family member who had died of cancer and the way he got the players to come over and throw the shirts to the away fans, he is a true gentleman and a really nice bloke
milo
Jack L. Jones
I think that the difference between us and the other teams competing for a top four place last season the quality of the players. The reason they were better at breaking down stubborn defences is because they had better strikers and more options, not better tactics.
A superior manager would have his available players performing better than the sum of thier parts.
Until we can afford the wages for those type of players - we would have to rely/bet on the manager to rise above the rest
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DubaiSpur
Ian Walker
Absolutely. But that isn't going to change, is it? For various reasons, we will likely never be able to afford the type of squad depth that Chelsea, United and City possess. Not until we finish paying for the new stadium, and even that's assuming that City and Chelsea don't expand their own stadiums during the interval. Arsenal and Liverpool are the rivals we can compete against in that regard. And, out of those two, our neighbors finished above us and Liverpool had another disappointing season. Why?
Arsenal have had a massive turnover of players over the past few seasons, but their tactical approach has stayed the same. This allows them to achieve continuous top four finishes without maintaining a relatively stable squad. Whereas we relied heavily on individual brilliance to see us through last season. And it worked for a lot of it. But when push came to shove, our weaker squad showed. And we finished fourth behind Arsenal, and ended up out of the CL. We played largely to expectations, but confirming them was disappointing in itself. When we needed a little tactical inspiration, some managerial tweak to see us past our stubborn opposition; in short, when we needed our manager to make up for the deficiencies in the squad, he fell short.
Now, the fact that we were able to maintain possession for such long periods is down to our players' individual brilliance, even if our squad was weaker than the others. But this season, our squad's been stripped of much of that brilliance through injuries and transfers away. So AVb has had to change the approach radically to keep us effective. But, by doing so, he is attempting to make up for the shortcomings of the squad by using his tactical abilities, and this is what impresses posters, when compared to Harry's inability to do so.
Playing poorly? Playing fudging poorly? Are we being serious? Playing poorly?
Yesterday reminded me of a game at the lane against manu several years ago when we were get better. United lead 2-0 at half time, we came out second half and a gave it a go. We scored through Hudd on the hour and they held on to win 2-1. There were a few heart stopping moments for them but they won. This is what happens in football. A team playing at home will have a go when losing it's how the opposition react that is important. We didn't lose, we held firm, we won!
The only thing that concerns me is that avb thinks he has to change things when we go ahead, why not play the same? If it ain't broke don't try and fix it!
Yesterday reminded me of a game at the lane against manu several years ago when we were get better. United lead 2-0 at half time, we came out second half and a gave it a go. We scored through Hudd on the hour and they held on to win 2-1. There were a few heart stopping moments for them but they won. This is what happens in football. A team playing at home will have a go when losing it's how the opposition react that is important. We didn't lose, we held firm, we won!
The only thing that concerns me is that avb thinks he has to change things when we go ahead, why not play the same? If it ain't broke don't try and fix it!
DubaiSpur
Ian Walker
Hudd off for Livermore, you mean? I don't think that was a tactical switch. That was more to do with Hudd tiring and his recovery from the injury needing to be managed carefully, imo. Our only real direct replacement for Hudd on the bench was Livermore, so it wasn't a hard decision to make, I'd imagine.
As much as I agree with that, over the course of a season, quality is still the sine qua non. But by quality I don't just mean the goodness of each of the parts, but also having the right parts at hand - ie. the right balance. For example, Saudi Sportswashing Machine did great last season with a poor man's Modric in Cabaye (still a fantastic player mind, just not Modric).
I think every team needs a passing type, a tempo setter, someone who always wants to keep possession and is constantly moving to make themselves available for the pass - even if they're not that amazing at this role, a la Joe Allen. But just having this type matters. The problem comes when every midfielder is more of a mover, someone who might touch the ball 19 times per game since they're more interested in taking up the right positions in anticipation of being released, or sweeping up rebounds/scuffed balls. Bale, Lennon, Dempsey, and Sig are of this type. Sandro prefers to win and then give the ball to his partner quickly. Dembele is a hard-worker with the mind of a "mover" - he'll tackle and win a lot of balls, but his instinct is to dribble and hang onto it to go forward like an AM, rather than set a metronymic passing tempo both vertically and laterally.
We are gravely lacking in passers in general, not just creative passers. Both Modric and VdV (and indeed Parker, despite his lower creativity) routinely had 70+ passes per game last season - helped, no doubt, by an in-form Ade's presence, but they are also natural passers who like to knit together play. Without them we are panicking in possession. Without them we don't have the ability even to hold on to the ball for most of a game under pressure. Yes, it is possible that lots of coaching on team movement will make up for this issue of technique and natural inclination, but that is going to take a long, LONG time.
Over the course of a season, I think that no amount of coaching will solve our deficit in terms of key qualities that we are missing - not overall quality, but the key type of player. It will paper over the cracks, but over the longer term, there is very little the manager can do when our rivals can buy all of Oscar, Hazard, Mata etc while we have to make do with Sig. This is what's happening to Arsenal, despite having a brilliant coach (note I said coach, not tactician) who has been there for years and years to establish his style. You don't always get what you pay for, but with the market evolving the way it is, it's getting harder and harder to convince someone who's even remotely talented to join us rather than get paid more to sit on a guaranteed CL team's bench. So the only real long term solution is smart investment - we can't just coach ourselves out of a billion-dollar gap when money (and the accompanying success) is all that matters to almost all players, and we can't just spend like crazy either. I don't know where we'll magically come up with the money, but, hey - we have plenty of deadwood, and just buying one player the manager genuinely wants like Moutinho would be a great start
