Letting us down, unfortunately. Ade, Soldado, Kaboul, Vert -- all badly under-performing through either lack of talent or bad attitudes imo. Poch will do better with young, hungry players who want to learn a different way (his way) of doing things and apply themselves for this club. That's just my opinion, for what it's worth (not much!)
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4-4-2
- Thread starter milo
- Start date
Letting us down, unfortunately. Ade, Soldado, Kaboul, Vert -- all badly under-performing through either lack of talent or bad attitudes imo. Poch will do better with young, hungry players who want to learn a different way (his way) of doing things and apply themselves for this club. That's just my opinion, for what it's worth (not much!)
I don't know. It depends on where Chadli and Eriksen were supposed to be I guess.
africanspurs
Justin Edinburgh
mate, you've been here for a while all of which conducting yourself pretty fairly and no witch hunts....i'm pretty sure its unanimous your opinion is worth quite a bit on here
having said that, i wouldnt want to get on board with that team without some form of level headed "i've been in this night club, i know the ropes" type figure loitering on the pitch
i also dont really trust much of the 'experienced' heads...but you have to have someone on there that tells the kids not to panic
honestly i think we miss dawson also........we miss the characters and the guy that just didnt give a ****.
its not surprising that our most formidable years had these kind of players through out the team....people with stronger minds than the current crop
i see where you are going with that team...you have qualities and tasks that you are looking for and you pick the ones that can do those tasks. thing is though that i think you might have picked them out individually as opposed to seeing how many units that can form between one another?
case in point bentaleb likes to pick the ball up deep...but how secure would he feel next to mason? Bentaleb seems to play cautiously and has a very methodical approach to the game but i feel that you need someone either on his wave length or someone he he can look up to on the pitch to be next to him to get the best out of him
i like the walker eriksen combo tbf...but how confident are you having a marauding walker with a rookie CB in dier...? is dier's positioning and decision making that good? its a lot of responsibility to put on a young buck....the need for him to be both CB and RB during games etc
i dont know....the team talent wise is very good...just thinking about the mesh as a single entity. not too sure
I think you make a good point re. experience. Another poster (I can't rmemeber who, might have been Milo) said something along the lines of our young players are good but our older players aren't good enough. Perhaps we require a Naybet/Davids type of signing to steady things a bit and bring everyone else up a level.
Dier is a bit of an unknown, could be a disaster. My main thinking is we look pretty awful at centre-half no matter who plays there at the moment. Dier, at least, can play as a defensive right-back (to cover Walker when he has to) and is main position is centre-back, where we haven't seen much of him. Fazio is fairly experienced alongside him, and Fazio's own lack of pace gets covered by Rose, who will mainly just defend and feed Townsend infront of him. Also, with Dier and Fazio, you get a lot more height not only to defend with, but to attack set-pieces (and Dier has shown he can do that a bit already this season).
Midfield with Bentaleb, again -- it's not so much how highly I rate the player, but more that the alternatives have been quite underwhelming (much like our central defenders). The thought of him, Mason and Eriksen passing and moving the ball, with the pace and drive of Townsend and Walker, the finishing, movement and heading abilities of Chadli and Kane might make an interesting combination. Once again, with Chadli and Kane -- it's not just the fact that they have been in the goals, but that Soldado and Adebayor aren't doing their jobs well enough to be missed should they get dropped.
Lamela would be pushing for a place on that left side, but for now I'd let him impact from the bench. I think it might have been you that said about how Harry built up Bale, brought him on at 4-0 to get rid of the jinx. We should do that with Lamela imo. Let him play with freedom in the cups and attack tired legs from the bench in the league. He could also cover Eriksen as the drifter from the right, and play a different game.
The overall theme, whatever combinations we choose, should be to get players who will play for this manager. This is why I like the homegrown players, as well as players who have improved their game this season, such as Chadli and Rose. Add in a couple of new signings (Dier and Fazio) and we should have a group that is on-board with whatever it is that Poch is trying to do.
I wanted us to give Ade and Kaboul some time, I thought they might just be rusty. But both are way short of form and you'd think they have enough minutes under their belts now to show some improvement. I'm a big fan of both players when at their best, but their best looks behind them right now. Capoue doesn't do it for me -- he seems to have good games when the team sets up well, but we need him to be able to bring up the rest of the team, rather than just see him play well when it's all coming easy. Vertonghen -- I don't think his heart is in it, but that's just my opinion. Soldado -- he's not for this league. No shame in it, but I don't think this is ever going to work for him....so yeah, that's why I leave these experienced players out, for the moment.
King of Norway
Gudni Bergsson
It looked pretty much like the same system as always. Soldado behind Adebayor, but being a striker of nature rather than a midfielder like the ones we have played there in the past, he was perhaps in a slightly more advanced position than the others.
Call it 4-2-3-1, a 4-4-1-1, or a 4-2-2-1-1 or whatever you want. I wouldn't call it a 4-2-2-2, cause Soldado was definitely playing behind Adebayor.
Soldado seemed to start out on the right and Chadli on the left. As the game went on Ade started drifting about. Whatever it was, it wasn't a typical 2 up front partnership. If Eriksen had tucked in a bit it could have been a 4-3-3.
King of Norway
Gudni Bergsson
I don't think Soldado ever looked like he was playing on the right. Eriksen started on the right the way I saw it. Chadli on the left. Soldado centrally. Then Chadli and Eriksen switched sides halfway through the half.
Bedfordspurs
Chris Waddle
MOTD2 just hit the tickle my balls with a feather with some of their graphics... There were son,any points when chaldi, Ade, Soldado, eriksen and Mason were in and around about 20 feet of each other and mainly central.
It just shows that we have no width and therefore bunch our players into areas where even Messing would struggle.
When I saw the line up I was excited at playing 4-4-2 but we effectively played Chadli and Eriksen wherever they wanted and Soldado in a number 10 behind Ade (who was actually better than most recent games)
The player who went wides most of the time was Mason
)()()( I truly can't work out what way were playing most if the time now and indent think the players can either
Millsy_Yiddo
Naybet
We have two such players (Eriksen & Lamela) they just need to start performing to their level of ability.
braineclipse
Steve Sedgley
MOTD2 just hit the tickle my balls with a feather with some of their graphics... There were son,any points when chaldi, Ade, Soldado, eriksen and Mason were in and around about 20 feet of each other and mainly central.
It just shows that we have no width and therefore bunch our players into areas where even Messing would struggle.
When I saw the line up I was excited at playing 4-4-2 but we effectively played Chadli and Eriksen wherever they wanted and Soldado in a number 10 behind Ade (who was actually better than most recent games)
The player who went wides most of the time was Mason
The width was clearly (again) coming from our full-backs. Naughton, and particularly Rose was finding and enjoying a lot of space and getting quite a few crosses in. Now, scoring from crosses without a proper target man on the pitch is something different, movement into the box can also be criticized, but the width was there. We've seen traditional wingers like Lennon go from outstanding when given space to ineffective when double marked against deep defending teams. I don't get why people are so obsessed with going back to that. Even Bale, and he's a world class superstar was quite frequently neutralized by solid PL teams when playing as a more "pure winger".
Mason as the deeper midfielder with the most attacking freedom drifting into the space being available wide seems perfectly natural to me.
Cochise
Steve Carr
MOTD picked out frames where our fullbacks hadn't pushed up to demonstrate their point. There were countless times when Mason spread play wide to the on rushing Rose after the opposition RB had been sucked in tracking Chadli/Lamela. Not only that but Ade & Soldado were sometimes pulling off into those area's (Soldado was occupying the right wing slot on one of the MOTD frames but they only highlighted the midfielders). My only problem was that with a two man midfield we didn't look able to cover our fullbacks well enough when they got forward and it made the Villa counters more trouble than they should've been.
Im with Jordino on this, I noticed Soldado lining up a lot on the right although was interchanging about like the front 3 always seem to be doing....
Isn't 4-4-2 just a set of numbers adding up to 10 the same as 4-3-3 or 4-4-1-1 is.
It's the players that make the team tick not a set of numbers and they never stay in formation throughout the game anyway. You can call a formation whatever you want but it's not that set of numbers that win you the game.
It's the players that make the team tick not a set of numbers and they never stay in formation throughout the game anyway. You can call a formation whatever you want but it's not that set of numbers that win you the game.
Modric THFC
Jimmy McCormick
I remember Bale getting destroyed on here week after week for not doing anything playing on the left with no space and being closely marked.
Then getting abuse about the size of his ego when he wanted to play in the middle.
The same "he plays on the left" chanters are ones getting a hard on over 442 traditional wingers.
tynesidespur
Terry Yorath
Totally agree about this. Its what caused the defeat to Saudi Sportswashing Machine last weekend - lack of characters and personality in the team.
Very early in AVB's reign when he'd first taken over from Harry we were struggling at home, drawn against WBA & Norwich and were 1 down to QPR (who were bottom) at HT. I remembered thinking then that we were lacking 1 or 2 characters. VdV had been replaced by Siggy who was lost playing in the hole and couldn't get into the game at all. I recall Dempsey coming on and getting about a bit, putting tackles in, having shots, not being bothered if he lost the ball, just demanding it again. It lifted the team, he wasn't top quality - he wasn't in VdV's league in terms of being a footballer - but he didn't give a toss about the crowd - he wanted the ball and imposed himself on the game. It turned the game for us and several times after that when we weren't at our best.
We need someone like that now.
tynesidespur
Terry Yorath
I agree re the width coming from the full backs but there has to be an end product. The standard of crossing was appalling yesterday. Adebayor is a big enough guy (and indeed had worked space in the box if the ball had been delivered) to put it on his head but Rose and Naughton consistently hit the first man or put it into the crowd. No excuse as they had time and space.
The argument for Lennon is dependent on how the rest of the team is setup. If the full backs aren't providing width (e.g. Dier was reluctant to come over halfway) or aren't delivering then there's value in having one of your front 4 stay wide - e.g. Lennon. If Lennon holds a position wide it should stretch the opposition back 4 and open up spaces for the other attackting three to play in. Even if he isn't directly involved and is being "marked" out of a game, the very fact of his presence could open more space on the pitch for others.
Playing Chadli, Eriksen & Lamela off a front man hasn't worked thus far because you can throw a blanket over them and the full backs have been unwilling or unable to provide support from wide. That trio could well work with Kyle Walker back and despite Rose's attacking intentions perhaps Ben Davies may be more effective as I think he has a better final ball.
I felt the lack of an experienced buy this summer was always going to be a mistake.
Back to the point of the post, ignoring the exact nature of the setup, to me 4-4-2 = playing two strikers/goalscorers
Based on our challenges, I believe we need two up front (however set up) against anyone below top 8.
Against top 4, we need to be more defensive, stop getting smashed ..
braineclipse
Steve Sedgley
Disagree up to a point. As brought up in other threads I think there's been a positive trend in our attacking play this season and even yesterday when people are saying that we were somewhere between atrocious and decent we created quite a few chances. Even if true the "thus far" part of your statement is important. This is what Poch seems to believe in, give him time to make it work I say. This is particularly true when we're improving. To now just change it around would be rather strange.
The complaint about end product is a funny one. Hasn't this been the main complain about Lennon for seasons now. Now he's out of the team we want him back in and the reasoning is that others aren't providing the end product?
I could see the argument for playing Lennon when both Walker and Naughton was injured and Dier was off form. When Dier was on form though he was doing fairly consistent good work down the right hand side and I wouldn't agree. To me it seems that there's a space of about a game or two where we've been lacking width down the right from our fullback.
braineclipse
Steve Sedgley
Chadli has 5 in 9 now. Would you classify him as a goalscorer?
I agree about experience, although I think showing a lot of faith to our younger less experienced players could pay dividends long term.