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2023-24 Season Review

Think the average expected league finishing position from the various pundits/talking heads/former pros in the Guardian, the BBC and the Telegraph (about 35 different 'experts' in total) had us finishing 8th. Think Merson was predicting us being relegated when Harry went!!

Overall I was happy with the season, mainly for the style of football played and the 'feel' about the club again.

Disappointed with cup runs but losing to City in the FA wasn't an upset.

Interesting, given the feeling that our 2nd half of the season cost us CL, that the graphic many posts up shows AV actually did us over the first 19 games rather than in the chase.
 
Bound to be variation in what thresholds people will use for various ratings like this.

If the season was flipped on it's head, first 10 games were the last 10 games would your rating be different?

(Like Raziel, not having a dig, just trying to understand. Is the impression of a lack of progress in the second half of the season something that drives the overall rating down for you?)

It would probably be different, but then improving as the season goes on is more positive.


This is a season review afterall, not a league position review.
 
Werner to keep or not? A tough one. Put 17m and high wages towards a new elite attacking signing. Or for a relatively low fee secure a seasoned pro who does bring something to the squad.


All in all we did well in Anges first season without Kane. Some were predicting a lower half finish on here. So an overall 7 for our season is fair.

Ange himself deserves more - an 8 - as he has turned around the tanker. We are now playing a style of football which the elite teams play. For literally two decades our passing has been lacking. Once known for push and run, latterly we’ve struggled to move the ball around the pitch with much fluidity. In a season Ange has changed that. Him and his teams greatest task is to get the detail right in each box now. A clinical defence and attack. Easier said than done. But that’s where we need the improvement focus and work.
It's not just the £17m, it's also his wages. He's rumored to be around £170K/wk, so a 4-year contract would result in a £52m total outlay. And with probably no resell value. Probably better to spend £40m on a younger quality player on £50-70K/wk.
 
I think the lack of good performances in the second half of the season is cause for (slight) concern - you would hope/expect improvement as the season goes on and the players without involvement in cup competitions had full weeks on the training ground to get to grips with Anges system.

However, it was always going to be difficult and unlikely (despite the excitement of some) to maintain our early season form. And looking at the Premier league table screenshot the other day for the first 19 games of the season vs the last 19 games of the season we was 5th for the first half of the season and 7th for the second half so results wise at least there was at least a fair amount of consistency overall.

Overall performances leave a lot more to be desired but with more and clever investment I think that will improve. I would say anyone scoring between a B and C is a fair reflection, like you say everyone has different thresholds for ratings. This season whilst ending perhaps slightly underwhelming, has at least been one that has given us a solid base to build from.....
I think the results are a bit misleading. In between our 5-game run of bad results post the Chelsea game and our last 7 games of the season we were 10-3-3, which is top-4 form. The end-of-season games against City, Arse, Pool, Toon, and Chelsea were always going to be difficult. Against Toon and Chelsea, granted we didn't show up. But we put up a great performance against City and Arsenal and woke up in the 2nd half against Pool. On different days we could have gone 1-1-1 in those games and the narrative would have been quite different. Even with the results we managed the narrative would have been quite different, if the English teams hadn't folded in the European comps and 5th got CL.

And if you zoom out and compare the table with the 2022/23 season you would see that, in spite of selling Kane and being in a rebuilding year, we achieved:

More points
Higher table position
More goals scored
Less goals conceded (slightly)
More wins
Fewer losses

So I think overall it has been quite positive and we will only be improving from here.
 
View attachment 17201

Nothing more to add except that without werner and dragusin it would porbably be worse
This graphic supports why I believe Brighton shouldn't cry over De Zerbi. When he was focused they performed great. Dude pulled a Harry Redknapp when he started being hailed in the papers. Brighton should have fired him before he walked. He cost them big time.
 
I think the results are a bit misleading. In between our 5-game run of bad results post the Chelsea game and our last 7 games of the season we were 10-3-3, which is top-4 form. The end-of-season games against City, Arse, Pool, Toon, and Chelsea were always going to be difficult. Against Toon and Chelsea, granted we didn't show up. But we put up a great performance against City and Arsenal and woke up in the 2nd half against Pool. On different days we could have gone 1-1-1 in those games and the narrative would have been quite different. Even with the results we managed the narrative would have been quite different, if the English teams hadn't folded in the European comps and 5th got CL.

And if you zoom out and compare the table with the 2022/23 season you would see that, in spite of selling Kane and being in a rebuilding year, we achieved:

More points
Higher table position
More goals scored
Less goals conceded (slightly)
More wins
Fewer losses

So I think overall it has been quite positive and we will only be improving from here.
I must confess, I dont really understand your argument here. The league table for both halves is having played every team, so is a good overall representation, not sure why we have to chop up and dissect a certain period of games. Yeah we had a period where we had top 4 form, and we have had a longer period where we wasn't top 4 form hence why we are where we are. Every club can play the 'could have, should have, would have' game and got more points here and there which is why a league table over a whole season is a fair. As for the narrative, I've only seen it as positive in the main from all areas whether it be on here or in the media everyone has acknowledged Ange has done well overall?

It has been quite positive, certainly agree with that but obviously with plenty of work still to do. There is no guarantees of an upward curve from here (only need to look at how the masses were talking about us kicking on under Conte in his second season), there will be different challenges year on year. We live in hope....
 
I must confess, I dont really understand your argument here. The league table for both halves is having played every team, so is a good overall representation, not sure why we have to chop up and dissect a certain period of games. Yeah we had a period where we had top 4 form, and we have had a longer period where we wasn't top 4 form hence why we are where we are. Every club can play the 'could have, should have, would have' game and got more points here and there which is why a league table over a whole season is a fair. As for the narrative, I've only seen it as positive in the main from all areas whether it be on here or in the media everyone has acknowledged Ange has done well overall?

It has been quite positive, certainly agree with that but obviously with plenty of work still to do. There is no guarantees of an upward curve from here (only need to look at how the masses were talking about us kicking on under Conte in his second season), there will be different challenges year on year. We live in hope....
The point I was trying to make was mostly in response to what you said about the dip in performances in the second half of the season being of (slight) concern. When you look at the performances within a season on a timeline you may feel some concern, if they don't follow a progressively improving pattern. That's a valid reaction and something that we are conditioned logically to expect. But the important thing to remember is that progress isn't always linear, especially in year 1 of a rebuild and, more importantly, change of playing style and mentality. There will be good patches and bad patches, and just because they don't follow what we would consider a logical sequence doesn't mean that we need to be concerned. Which is why zooming out and looking at the season in its totality gives a better perspective.

And you are right that there is no guarantee of an upward curve, but reinforcing the playing style and mentality and adding the players that suit it better makes it more likely than not. Conte is not really a good example, because he didn't play the kind of football that the players enjoyed and there really was no plan other than "buy me ready-made players." A direction that we neither had the footballing structure or finances to follow, nor the desire to follow, even if we had the footballing structure in place. Currently everyone is pulling in the same direction, the players are enjoying their football, and we are financially strong enough to make the signings we need. So I'm optimistic that we will kick on from this season and perform even better next year.
 
It's not just the £17m, it's also his wages. He's rumored to be around £170K/wk, so a 4-year contract would result in a £52m total outlay. And with probably no resell value. Probably better to spend £40m on a younger quality player on £50-70K/wk.
Werner is an attacking player who can’t be relied upon to finish. If we want to take a step up we need to find better. Get rid.
 
Werner is an attacking player who can’t be relied upon to finish. If we want to take a step up we need to find better. Get rid.

Yeah if we're going to stick with Son as a starting LWF and are looking to buy a new CF (which is reportedly the case) then I'd rather we bought a fresh LWF to come in as backup to Son but one who has potential to make the place his own in a year or two - Werner would be a pure backup and if Son were to properly tail off then we'd be stuck with 2 players not at the required level for a starting XI position leaving us in a bit of a pickle. If i was confident of Son maintaining a high level for the next 2-3 years then Werner would be a sensible signing.
 
Yeah if we're going to stick with Son as a starting LWF and are looking to buy a new CF (which is reportedly the case) then I'd rather we bought a fresh LWF to come in as backup to Son but one who has potential to make the place his own in a year or two - Werner would be a pure backup and if Son were to properly tail off then we'd be stuck with 2 players not at the required level for a starting XI position leaving us in a bit of a pickle. If i was confident of Son maintaining a high level for the next 2-3 years then Werner would be a sensible signing.
Good point. Werner would make more sense as an option in different circumstances.
 
I know, not the biggest fan here, historically speaking. Part time fan, so just as an outsider view to consider tho, if I may:

Vicario 7.5/10 - needs to improve on crosses and rushing out

Defence: good foundation to build on. Will improve on this season for sure

Udogie 6.5 - needs to be better defensively, I think a but overrated imo. Can play VDV in some games at LB, but not long term
Romero/VDV 7.5/8 - rock solid foundation
Dragusin 7 - got some good experience, ready to go to next level and play more
Porro 7 - good offensively, decent defensively. High work rate. still young

Probably need another LB, cover for RB and another rotation at CB

Midfield: Lots of improvement possible. Can't really rate anyone highly here.

Maddison 7 - some good things, but can't be considered world class. Needs to work on attitude
Bentancur 7 - good attitude, solid midfield presence,
Sarr 6.5 - lots of room for improvement, but not exactly top4 material, yet. Needs to become more consistent
Bissouma, Hojbjerg, Skipp, Lo celso 6 - keep Biss/Hojbjerg as back up options and for Europa league

Would sign an offensive midfielder to compete with Maddison

Forwards: A few additions needed if top4 is going to happen

Son 7 - needs to play on the left, everyone agrees. Needs to find renewed motivation and should happen if some top targets are signed. Still got a few years in him
Kulusevski 6.5 - never been a fan. Too many touches, holds up play, runs around in circles, more often than not loses the ball. Still young, but will never be top4 material. Had plenty of time to prove it, but I see more of the same every year. Backup and Europa or sell
Johnson 6.5 - I think he can be a very good player next season. Needs to improve finishing and consistency, but already better option than Kulu imo
Werner 6.5 - I think he can't improve further, but at least (compared to Kulu), he puts a decent cross in and runs at defense. Good backup player, but high salary as some.point out. Maybe time to invest in youngsters.
Richarlison 6.5 - improvement in attitude. Too many injuries and inconsistencies. Excellent backup option

Desperately in need of a top CF and AMC if you want to challenge for more.
More creativity and option to play through the middle, too much reliance on wingers and crosses. Need someone who runs at defence, dribbles through the middle to open up spaces.

Ange 7.5 - definitely a good manager. Give him time and a good budget and he can do more. Got the best possible result out of this squad imo.

Cheers!
 
Ange is a 7 for me. I think 1st season angeball overcommitting too many players up front and too demanding on the players. we kinda lost the ability to attack or defend well in the latter half of the season. Quality in depth is an issue, but chopping and changing has its own disadvantages. For angeball to work without much changes we need a much strong and clinical attack.
 
Okay - now the season in England is over, one can take a proper look at everything.

Overall - 6.5. Decent, nothing spectacular. Promising start, understandably tough middle, bafflingly poor end. Some reasonable foundations to build on.

Ange - 6.5. Decent, nothing spectacular. As I said earlier, I think we've seen both his floor and his ceiling - I'm confident we'll be competitive in and around 4th/5th, but also think we're unlikely to go much higher under him. That seems to be what we're content with as a club, so he'll be a roughly good manager on the whole.

Vicario - 7. Promising start to life at Spurs. His weakness is clearly his lack of physicality and dominance of the box at corners - he'll need to bulk up a little, which is achievable. But other than that, I believe this is the first season in the last 15 where we have conceded 0 goals from goalkeeper errors - that is testament to his reliability and shio stopping.

Defence - 6.5. Generally positive. Van de Ven has been a revelation, Romero has had a great year, Porto and Udogie have led the league in terms of offensive statistics for fullbacks. But a) we conceded ridiculous numbers of goals regardless, and b) we refused to learn some easy lessons like 'mark your men at corners' for far too long.

Midfielders - 5.5. Real mixed bag here. Maddison had a great start but fell off rapidly post-injury - Sarr and Bissouma had similar declines post-AFCON. Bentancur is struggling to get back to his best post-injury (understandable), and Hojbjerg played well only situationally (ditto Skipp). Controlling the midfield needs to be high on our agenda for this summer window, imo.

Forwards - 7. A generally good year for most. Sonny has once again posted 20+ goals and assists, a ludicrously consistent return - he took to the captaincy reasonably well. Richy has proven a useful piece and finally found some goalscoring form. Both Johnson and Werner actually delivered at a greater rate than their critics would have you believe - Werner was productive in terms of xg/Xa in the limited time he's had, while Johnson actually had a better debut season than Son did all those years ago. Kulu struggled, Solomon unfortunately was injured throughout, Gil anonymous. But otherwise, while we do need a new ST, LW and RW...I wouldn't underrated the job the existing ones have done.

Overall positives:

Attacking, flowing football - good to see us try to control games again after 5 years of dour Mourinho, Nuno and Conteball.

5th place - higher than most expected this year, solid base to build on.

Overall negatives:

Late-season collapse: we went in the opposite direction to what you would expect of a new system being bedded in - with a mostly fully fit squad, we got worse and worse as the season wore on. That remains a concern.

Final thoughts:

There's a lot to like from this transition year. Also a lot that raises reservations. But overall, I'd just like to point to the fact that Kane going has really lowered expectations as to what we are as a club, which has otherwise masked some dispiriting comparisons.

Fact remains, that in their worst season in 20 years, United have now won more than us - while we bombed out in the 4th round, again. Despite this, Ten Hag was sacked.

Chelsea finished 3 points behind us while also getting to a League Cup final and an FA Cup semifinal - despite this, Poch was sacked.

Unai Emery came in and got Aston Villa winning straight away, and unlike us, they never stopped winning - CL is a just reward for the incredible job Emery has done since taking over.

Ange and the club got a lot of leeway this year for finishing as trophyless wonders yet again, because most of us accepted this was a transition year.

But, categorically, it's hard to argue we (or Ange) have had a better season than any of the above. And that's my pont about lowered expectations - ENIC have done such a good job depressing everyone's idea of what is possible, that we take rough diamonds and celebrate them while the actual silverware and history go to the others.

This season alone, Leverkusen ('Neverkusen'), Atalanta and Bilbao made history - last season Napoli did. Similarly sized clubs that broke their droughts with trophies. But somehow you just know that won't be us. Always the bridesmaids, never the bride - and this is now a reality many of us have accepted.

Ah, well. Personally I have made peace with the idea that this is forever our ceiling under these owners, and I don't fuss over it. Managers come, managers go, but this is our limit under this ownership model.

In the mean time, I can enjoy the little things. And maybe that's all you can really ask for, who knows. :)

A pleasant summer to you all my friends. I haven't posted as much as I would like, but I have deeply enjoyed talking to all of you when I have. Here's to more excitement next year!
 
Okay - now the season in England is over, one can take a proper look at everything.

Overall - 6.5. Decent, nothing spectacular. Promising start, understandably tough middle, bafflingly poor end. Some reasonable foundations to build on.

Ange - 6.5. Decent, nothing spectacular. As I said earlier, I think we've seen both his floor and his ceiling - I'm confident we'll be competitive in and around 4th/5th, but also think we're unlikely to go much higher under him. That seems to be what we're content with as a club, so he'll be a roughly good manager on the whole.

Vicario - 7. Promising start to life at Spurs. His weakness is clearly his lack of physicality and dominance of the box at corners - he'll need to bulk up a little, which is achievable. But other than that, I believe this is the first season in the last 15 where we have conceded 0 goals from goalkeeper errors - that is testament to his reliability and shio stopping.

Defence - 6.5. Generally positive. Van de Ven has been a revelation, Romero has had a great year, Porto and Udogie have led the league in terms of offensive statistics for fullbacks. But a) we conceded ridiculous numbers of goals regardless, and b) we refused to learn some easy lessons like 'mark your men at corners' for far too long.

Midfielders - 5.5. Real mixed bag here. Maddison had a great start but fell off rapidly post-injury - Sarr and Bissouma had similar declines post-AFCON. Bentancur is struggling to get back to his best post-injury (understandable), and Hojbjerg played well only situationally (ditto Skipp). Controlling the midfield needs to be high on our agenda for this summer window, imo.

Forwards - 7. A generally good year for most. Sonny has once again posted 20+ goals and assists, a ludicrously consistent return - he took to the captaincy reasonably well. Richy has proven a useful piece and finally found some goalscoring form. Both Johnson and Werner actually delivered at a greater rate than their critics would have you believe - Werner was productive in terms of xg/Xa in the limited time he's had, while Johnson actually had a better debut season than Son did all those years ago. Kulu struggled, Solomon unfortunately was injured throughout, Gil anonymous. But otherwise, while we do need a new ST, LW and RW...I wouldn't underrated the job the existing ones have done.

Overall positives:

Attacking, flowing football - good to see us try to control games again after 5 years of dour Mourinho, Nuno and Conteball.

5th place - higher than most expected this year, solid base to build on.

Overall negatives:

Late-season collapse: we went in the opposite direction to what you would expect of a new system being bedded in - with a mostly fully fit squad, we got worse and worse as the season wore on. That remains a concern.

Final thoughts:

There's a lot to like from this transition year. Also a lot that raises reservations. But overall, I'd just like to point to the fact that Kane going has really lowered expectations as to what we are as a club, which has otherwise masked some dispiriting comparisons.

Fact remains, that in their worst season in 20 years, United have now won more than us - while we bombed out in the 4th round, again. Despite this, Ten Hag was sacked.

Chelsea finished 3 points behind us while also getting to a League Cup final and an FA Cup semifinal - despite this, Poch was sacked.

Unai Emery came in and got Aston Villa winning straight away, and unlike us, they never stopped winning - CL is a just reward for the incredible job Emery has done since taking over.

Ange and the club got a lot of leeway this year for finishing as trophyless wonders yet again, because most of us accepted this was a transition year.

But, categorically, it's hard to argue we (or Ange) have had a better season than any of the above. And that's my pont about lowered expectations - ENIC have done such a good job depressing everyone's idea of what is possible, that we take rough diamonds and celebrate them while the actual silverware and history go to the others.

This season alone, Leverkusen ('Neverkusen'), Atalanta and Bilbao made history - last season Napoli did. Similarly sized clubs that broke their droughts with trophies. But somehow you just know that won't be us. Always the bridesmaids, never the bride - and this is now a reality many of us have accepted.

Ah, well. Personally I have made peace with the idea that this is forever our ceiling under these owners, and I don't fuss over it. Managers come, managers go, but this is our limit under this ownership model.

In the mean time, I can enjoy the little things. And maybe that's all you can really ask for, who knows. :)

A pleasant summer to you all my friends. I haven't posted as much as I would like, but I have deeply enjoyed talking to all of you when I have. Here's to more excitement next year!
Ten Hag hasn't been sacked.

And Levy rules! 😁
 
Okay - now the season in England is over, one can take a proper look at everything.

Overall - 6.5. Decent, nothing spectacular. Promising start, understandably tough middle, bafflingly poor end. Some reasonable foundations to build on.

Ange - 6.5. Decent, nothing spectacular. As I said earlier, I think we've seen both his floor and his ceiling - I'm confident we'll be competitive in and around 4th/5th, but also think we're unlikely to go much higher under him. That seems to be what we're content with as a club, so he'll be a roughly good manager on the whole.

Vicario - 7. Promising start to life at Spurs. His weakness is clearly his lack of physicality and dominance of the box at corners - he'll need to bulk up a little, which is achievable. But other than that, I believe this is the first season in the last 15 where we have conceded 0 goals from goalkeeper errors - that is testament to his reliability and shio stopping.

Defence - 6.5. Generally positive. Van de Ven has been a revelation, Romero has had a great year, Porto and Udogie have led the league in terms of offensive statistics for fullbacks. But a) we conceded ridiculous numbers of goals regardless, and b) we refused to learn some easy lessons like 'mark your men at corners' for far too long.

Midfielders - 5.5. Real mixed bag here. Maddison had a great start but fell off rapidly post-injury - Sarr and Bissouma had similar declines post-AFCON. Bentancur is struggling to get back to his best post-injury (understandable), and Hojbjerg played well only situationally (ditto Skipp). Controlling the midfield needs to be high on our agenda for this summer window, imo.

Forwards - 7. A generally good year for most. Sonny has once again posted 20+ goals and assists, a ludicrously consistent return - he took to the captaincy reasonably well. Richy has proven a useful piece and finally found some goalscoring form. Both Johnson and Werner actually delivered at a greater rate than their critics would have you believe - Werner was productive in terms of xg/Xa in the limited time he's had, while Johnson actually had a better debut season than Son did all those years ago. Kulu struggled, Solomon unfortunately was injured throughout, Gil anonymous. But otherwise, while we do need a new ST, LW and RW...I wouldn't underrated the job the existing ones have done.

Overall positives:

Attacking, flowing football - good to see us try to control games again after 5 years of dour Mourinho, Nuno and Conteball.

5th place - higher than most expected this year, solid base to build on.

Overall negatives:

Late-season collapse: we went in the opposite direction to what you would expect of a new system being bedded in - with a mostly fully fit squad, we got worse and worse as the season wore on. That remains a concern.

Final thoughts:

There's a lot to like from this transition year. Also a lot that raises reservations. But overall, I'd just like to point to the fact that Kane going has really lowered expectations as to what we are as a club, which has otherwise masked some dispiriting comparisons.

Fact remains, that in their worst season in 20 years, United have now won more than us - while we bombed out in the 4th round, again. Despite this, Ten Hag was sacked.

Chelsea finished 3 points behind us while also getting to a League Cup final and an FA Cup semifinal - despite this, Poch was sacked.

Unai Emery came in and got Aston Villa winning straight away, and unlike us, they never stopped winning - CL is a just reward for the incredible job Emery has done since taking over.

Ange and the club got a lot of leeway this year for finishing as trophyless wonders yet again, because most of us accepted this was a transition year.

But, categorically, it's hard to argue we (or Ange) have had a better season than any of the above. And that's my pont about lowered expectations - ENIC have done such a good job depressing everyone's idea of what is possible, that we take rough diamonds and celebrate them while the actual silverware and history go to the others.

This season alone, Leverkusen ('Neverkusen'), Atalanta and Bilbao made history - last season Napoli did. Similarly sized clubs that broke their droughts with trophies. But somehow you just know that won't be us. Always the bridesmaids, never the bride - and this is now a reality many of us have accepted.

Ah, well. Personally I have made peace with the idea that this is forever our ceiling under these owners, and I don't fuss over it. Managers come, managers go, but this is our limit under this ownership model.

In the mean time, I can enjoy the little things. And maybe that's all you can really ask for, who knows. :)

A pleasant summer to you all my friends. I haven't posted as much as I would like, but I have deeply enjoyed talking to all of you when I have. Here's to more excitement next year!

I want to have a specific conversation here, was considering doing a separate thread. I want to build on the no trophy (again) issue.

Dubai, as usual you let a good conversation get sidetracked by bias
- United & Chelsea's owners are fudging clueless, and both clubs are a circus with owners that really want to implement a "yes man" coach who will allow them to buy "club players" and sell whoever they want purely for profit
- United across multiple metrics (losses, GA, GD, etc) had the worse league season ever.
- Villa never stopped winning? they actually won 1 less point in 2nd half of season than us, their 2nd half season form was 9th place (ours was 7th)
- The resurgence of 2nd tier clubs in Europe is interesting if not necessarily related

But lets get to the point
- I agree re transition season, allowances need to be made
- But how the fudge did that United team win two trophies in two years with that manager? (ETH is the same manager who played that CL semi-final against us, his teams never have control or game management, hence they still do an "Ajax", see the cup semi against lower league opponents at 3-0 up)
- How did a Moyes West Ham win a European cup?

To me, this isn't playing squad or owner support (hard to argue those clubs are better at that)
- Is it as simple as prioritization? i.e. they are willing to give up the league?
- Or is it expectation (too much, too little?)

I've always felt we go into those moments without the freedom of a Leicester/West Ham/etc. who might see it just as a free hit (no expectations), and not enough experience/belief to "expect it", almost a unique too big a club to just go for it, but not big enough to expect it.

Others?

p.s. Dubai, despite the disagreements, we all enjoy the conversation/input, hope you have a good holiday time.
 
I want to have a specific conversation here, was considering doing a separate thread. I want to build on the no trophy (again) issue.

Dubai, as usual you let a good conversation get sidetracked by bias
- United & Chelsea's owners are fudging clueless, and both clubs are a circus with owners that really want to implement a "yes man" coach who will allow them to buy "club players" and sell whoever they want purely for profit
- United across multiple metrics (losses, GA, GD, etc) had the worse league season ever.
- Villa never stopped winning? they actually won 1 less point in 2nd half of season than us, their 2nd half season form was 9th place (ours was 7th)
- The resurgence of 2nd tier clubs in Europe is interesting if not necessarily related

But lets get to the point
- I agree re transition season, allowances need to be made
- But how the fudge did that United team win two trophies in two years with that manager? (ETH is the same manager who played that CL semi-final against us, his teams never have control or game management, hence they still do an "Ajax", see the cup semi against lower league opponents at 3-0 up)
- How did a Moyes West Ham win a European cup?

To me, this isn't playing squad or owner support (hard to argue those clubs are better at that)
- Is it as simple as prioritization? i.e. they are willing to give up the league?
- Or is it expectation (too much, too little?)

I've always felt we go into those moments without the freedom of a Leicester/West Ham/etc. who might see it just as a free hit (no expectations), and not enough experience/belief to "expect it", almost a unique too big a club to just go for it, but not big enough to expect it.

Others?

p.s. Dubai, despite the disagreements, we all enjoy the conversation/input, hope you have a good holiday time.
To me it's mostly a coincidence/variance issue.

Some portion of those trophies are going to get picked up by the very best teams around. That's just going to happen. As a rough estimate and for easy numbers let's say the best 2-3 clubs picks up the trophy around 50% of the time. Two domestic cups, on average one won by a team outside the top 2-3 teams.

Then there's a rather large number of teams with a decent to small likelihood of winning it. One trophy a season, rather large number of teams with some likelihood of winning it. Variance kicks in making "patterns" that turn into narratives, mostly about the one's that recently won it.

Perhaps we've gotten a trophy or two fewer than we "should have" based on our quality over the last 20 years. But it's probably not much more than that. That's variance imo.

West Ham won the conference, so it's because of the "freedom"/whatever. But actually they haven't won a domestic cup in ages. Why wouldn't they have won at least one if their freedom/owners/whatever gave them an advantage?

The thing that mostly matters is getting better, being in the conversation for a trophy more often, then hope the key games fall our way.

Of course some level of "winning mentality", experience and stuff like that matters. But that's mostly built by having a better team, then improved by the experience of actually winning. It can be bought, but it takes a shedload of money. For us it has to be about getting better, then hoping.
 
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