Daniel Levy - Former Chairman

[Raziel]

If, buts and maybes. For you, yes it might just be the last 2 seasons but there were many of us who could recognise the pattern of failing and warned of the degradation of our quality and ability years before Ange ever appeared.

Again I'll say to you sacking the manager at any time is not a solution. That is just putting a bandage on a severed arm. If you make the correct decision in the first place then you don't need to sack the manager. Our concern should be with the initial decisions and the rationale that led to them rather than trying to fix something that is already broken, why not try and not break it in the first place and Levy post 2016 was actively breaking this squad.

We reached 2016 now? that's exactly my point. What degradation of squad years before Ange? Conte got 4th with that squad and was 4th when he (for personal reasons) imploded.

I disagree re sacking manager, you can't expect to get it right every time, proper leadership isn't being perfect, it's recognizing mistakes early and correcting, and correcting twice/three times until you get it right.

And it's not if, buts and maybes. No one (and I include you in that) believes if we fired Frank in November, brought in RDZ, gave him 3 players in January, believes we would have finished 17h. That in itself tells us the issue wasn't just some inevitability of 6 years ago, it was driven by bad decisions in the last 2 years.

 

[metalgear]

It appears that the three charged with the spying were not employees of PKF the accountancy firm and police found no evidence of any connection to Levy or Spurs , that's how it all ended.

Others not Spurs also took the matter to the European Commission that West Ham were receiving illegal state aid to help them occupy the Olympic Stadium but that got nowhere, still justice has finally prevailed Hammers in the Championship.

Totally agree with you on WHam's justified end. Not sure how they got the stadium decision to the detriment of tax payers.

 

[demotw]

Levy lost me after three windows of zero transfers in. This after promising that the stadium build would not affect the football side of the business. That was peak Poch era and we reached the CL finals. Much easier to get quality players then compared to now.

Trouble is this wasn't just a Levy decision, this was a Poch decision, a Levy decision, a whoever the head scout was at the time decision. Look back to what Poch said at the time:

"Our decision was not to sign, [even though] it is the fashion to sign or because we are the only club in Europe that has not signed players. That maybe looks bad because of the perception and because of the history of football, but that is our decision – to keep the best players and to keep the squad. It's a brave decision... to sign for the sake of signing? It is better to keep your [players]."

"Tottenham's top targets were unaffordable and it was senseless to sign players they didn't want... If you want to sign Player X and you ask for him and it's £100 million, well I have money but not enough to sign what we need or what we want. Then you need to move on – and maybe the player you need is not in the market."

While Pochettino backed the strategy in press conferences, minutes from a Tottenham Hotspur Supporters' Trust meeting with Daniel Levy later revealed it was a mutual scenario. The club had based its window on the assumption that certain squad players would leave and specific priority targets would become available. When those outgoings stagnated and the top-tier targets fell through (such as a failed £25m pursuit of Jack Grealish), Pochettino preferred to stick with his tight-knit squad rather than buy panic alternatives.

Now, that does not absolve Levy - he had a part to play in this, negotiating a lot harder (apparently) on Grealish then needed etc.. but nor is he the reason we had 2 windows of no transfers. It was 2 as we signed Moura in Winter 2018, then N'Dombele in Summer 2019. Anyways, I have heard this from Poch supporters far too many times (not saying you are one) when he is equally as responsible for turning down the likes of Tielmans etc who was available and wanting to come, also insisting on N'dombele and pursuing Rabiot rather then considering other options. As is our scouting team for not identifying enough targets to give options if primary ones are not available, although it sounds like Poch was very much primary one only or I am not interested.

 

[Raziel]

Now, that does not absolve Levy - he had a part to play in this, negotiating a lot harder (apparently) on Grealish then needed etc.. but nor is he the reason we had 2 windows of no transfers. It was 2 as we signed Moura in Winter 2018, then N'Dombele in Summer 2019. Anyways, I have heard this from Poch supporters far too many times (not saying you are one) when he is equally as responsible for turning down the likes of Tielmans etc who was available and wanting to come, also insisting on N'dombele and pursuing Rabiot rather then considering other options. As is our scouting team for not identifying enough targets to give options if primary ones are not available, although it sounds like Poch was very much primary one only or I am not interested.

and Hoddle has publicly insisted that the club offered Poch players in those two windows.

good luck with that conversation here mate ..

 

[Bishop]

We reached 2016 now? that's exactly my point. What degradation of squad years before Ange? Conte got 4th with that squad and was 4th when he (for personal reasons) imploded.

Wanyana & Dembele to fudging Winks and trash Sissoko.Toby and Jan to Sanchez and Dier. Fit Rose to Davies. Lloris degrading in quality season after season, with no real attempt to arrest things I tik his performance level literally dropped off the clif. Walker to flipping Tripier and then Aurier. So yes the squad season by season was decreasing in quality. The only thing that laid a massive plaster over the reduced performances was a pair called Harry Kane and Heung Mun Son.

If you actually thought we were as good in 2019 as we had been in 2016 you are crazy man are I don't know wtf you were watching.

I disagree re sacking manager, you can't expect to get it right every time, proper leadership isn't being perfect, it's recognizing mistakes early and correcting, and correcting twice/three times until you get it right.

No one is saying get it right every time but if you're sacking a manager every 12 months on average (5 managers in 5 years), then yes maybe you should look at your recruitment process and maybe, just maybe the people you're hiring aren't the cause of the issue...

And it's not if, buts and maybes. No one (and I include you in that) believes if we fired Frank in November, brought in RDZ, gave him 3 players in January, believes we would have finished 17h. That in itself tells us the issue wasn't just some inevitability of 6 years ago, it was driven by bad decisions in the last 2 years.

We might not have finished 17th but we wouldn't have finished 4th, so the pint of the lessening of our standards and quality still stands. The quality of the squad is what it is. You did here De Zerbi himself say only 12 players are good enough? If he himself thought that all was hunky dory and this was a squad matching 2016 and only poor management was the issue he wouldn't have suggested we need to replace half the bloody squad.

 

[demotw]

Wanyana & Dembele to fudging Winks and trash Sissoko.Toby and Jan to Sanchez and Dier. Fit Rose to Davies. Lloris degrading in quality season after season, with no real attempt to arrest things I tik his performance level literally dropped off the clif. Walker to flipping Tripier and then Aurier. So yes the squad season by season was decreasing in quality. The only thing that laid a massive plaster over the reduced performances was a pair called Harry Kane and Heung Mun Son.

You know Toby and Jan were still our starting CB's in 2019 right? In 2016 Dier played more games in midfield then Wanyama did as well. Dembele was still there, but injured until eventually moved out in the winter (wrong decision, should have kept him in cotton wool for the final). You did miss Trippier who replaced Walker, but that wasn't exactly a failure i quite rated Trippier. Erik Lamela was starting in 2016, replaced by Son by 2019 - again an upgrade here. Oh and backups, in 2016 our forward line was Kane/Chadli/N'jie and Sonny. In 2019 we had Kane/Llorente/Moura/Sonny/Janssen (who was basically sidelined by poch in 2019 until he was needed post jan due to injuries.)

So who are we arguing over in reality, Wanyama for Sissoko being the reason for failure? A Winks who at the time pre-injury deserved his spot in the team? We had a stronger squad overall in 2019 but suffered from injuries a bit from memory, and losing Dembele was painful but it is hardly the cliff drop you are suggesting.

 

[Bishop]

You know Toby and Jan were still our starting CB's in 2019 right? In 2016 Dier played more games in midfield then Wanyama did as well. Dembele was still there, but injured until eventually moved out in the winter (wrong decision, should have kept him in cotton wool for the final). You did miss Trippier who replaced Walker, but that wasn't exactly a failure i quite rated Trippier. Erik Lamela was starting in 2016, replaced by Son by 2019 - again an upgrade here. Oh and backups, in 2016 our forward line was Kane/Chadli/N'jie and Sonny. In 2019 we had Kane/Llorente/Moura/Sonny/Janssen (who was basically sidelined by poch in 2019 until he was needed post jan due to injuries.)

So who are we arguing over in reality, Wanyama for Sissoko being the reason for failure? A Winks who at the time pre-injury deserved his spot in the team? We had a stronger squad overall in 2019 but suffered from injuries a bit from memory, and losing Dembele was painful but it is hardly the cliff drop you are suggesting.

No I absolutely disagree, our squad was worse in 2019, quite significantly so. Did you watch the games? Our performance level decreased massively, it was just squad knowhow that kept us in the top 4 but by the next season even that wasn't working anymore. There is a reason Poch got fired (wrongly), we were no longer hitting the heights we had previously and that was largely because the squad had gotten old together and had, had no quality replacements infused. The defence was worn out and depleted. Jan and Toby in particular had became a shadow what they were previously, Rose was physically done (although admittedly we didn't know at that time he would never return to his previous level). Your Wanyana point is wrong, he started 36 games that season, Dier 34 and Dier was the utility guy. Son and Lamela played on opposite sides and Son was already here and a key player 2016/17 so I don't know what you're taking about. I also didn't skip Trippier if you read my post again you'll see I mentioned him as replacing Walker (another downgrade).

Winks getting a starting berth happened not because he was an improvement on what we had already but instead because like Dier getting the CB berth, the guys ahead of him had degraded below the level they offered. You don't improve by replacing with inferior players, that's how you get worse and guess what? That's exactly what happened.

 

[thfcsteff]

and Hoddle has publicly insisted that the club offered Poch players in those two windows.

good luck with that conversation here mate ..

The argument has always (always!) been the calibre of player we were prepared to buy vs the calibre of player Poch felt we needed to kick-on again. And at a certain point Poch said he'd rather have none than continue the age-old Totty move of 'getting someone in of decent standard who costs just enough to choke up our finances and make sure we could not get blue chip even if we wanted. Poch also wanted players in early; he rarely got them early.

 

[Muttley]

Right now we are playing net zero spend, and our fans think the problem is 6 years ago .. make no mistake, I think RDZ is a good manager and will have us punch above our weight, but if the plan is Robertson, Senesi, JVH, Savino, Harry Wilson and maybe one real attacking intent signing (MGW or a CF), it isn't enough and no amount of hindsight blaming will change that.

This resonates with me. We've all been there before trying to get excited as we see these types of players come in. Then after a season we realise they're not all that and then take 2 seasons to sell them, normally including a loan to get them out of the way for a season. That all coincides with yet another manager change.

Is that happening again this summer? It could well be.

In the mean time, the big clubs narrowly focus on 2 or 3 elite or potential elite players and keep maintaining their status. Once in a while a phase ends for them but they then go again and soon recover to a highly competitive status. It's not that they spend considerably more. It's just smarter buying.

 

[Muttley]

and Hoddle has publicly insisted that the club offered Poch players in those two windows.

good luck with that conversation here mate ..

Perhaps Glenn should name some names then. Let's call his bluff on it.

Who were these mystical players that Poch was offered? I've only been asking for 8 years and the only name anyone has come up with is Tielemans who would have been decent but not at the Eriksen, Dele or Dembele level in that team. Not saying squad depth isn't a bad thing but I've never heard a players name mentioned that made me think Poch was wrong to make a stand against a failing recruitment team, including his chairman who left him starting pre-season in a state of flux every year.

 

[Baleforce]

Wanyana & Dembele to fudging Winks and trash Sissoko.Toby and Jan to Sanchez and Dier. Fit Rose to Davies. Lloris degrading in quality season after season, with no real attempt to arrest things I tik his performance level literally dropped off the clif. Walker to flipping Tripier and then Aurier. So yes the squad season by season was decreasing in quality. The only thing that laid a massive plaster over the reduced performances was a pair called Harry Kane and Heung Mun Son.

If you actually thought we were as good in 2019 as we had been in 2016 you are crazy man are I don't know wtf you were watching.

No one is saying get it right every time but if you're sacking a manager every 12 months on average (5 managers in 5 years), then yes maybe you should look at your recruitment process and maybe, just maybe the people you're hiring aren't the cause of the issue...

We might not have finished 17th but we wouldn't have finished 4th, so the pint of the lessening of our standards and quality still stands. The quality of the squad is what it is. You did here De Zerbi himself say only 12 players are good enough? If he himself thought that all was hunky dory and this was a squad matching 2016 and only poor management was the issue he wouldn't have suggested we need to replace half the bloody squad.

We were never going to replace those players like for like, we probably had 7 of the best 11 players in the world in their positions at the time, the issue isn’t that we didn’t replace them, it’s that that group didn’t win anything.

 

[Raziel]

Perhaps Glenn should name some names then. Let's call his bluff on it.

Who were these mystical players that Poch was offered? I've only been asking for 8 years and the only name anyone has come up with is Tielemans who would have been decent but not at the Eriksen, Dele or Dembele level in that team. Not saying squad depth isn't a bad thing but I've never heard a players name mentioned that made me think Poch was wrong to make a stand against a failing recruitment team, including his chairman who left him starting pre-season in a state of flux every year.

The argument has always (always!) been the calibre of player we were prepared to buy vs the calibre of player Poch felt we needed to kick-on again. And at a certain point Poch said he'd rather have none than continue the age-old Totty move of 'getting someone in of decent standard who costs just enough to choke up our finances and make sure we could not get blue chip even if we wanted. Poch also wanted players in early; he rarely got them early.

That may be your argument, and it's an absolutely justified statement (and in some ways nothing has changed when looking at this summer's incoming), but lets not pretend there aren't people who like to use the "no players for two windows", club being cheap, with zero caveats just as a stick to beat the club with (and my point, always has been there is lots to beat the club with, without having to stretch for it)

 

[Bishop]

Perhaps Glenn should name some names then. Let's call his bluff on it.

Who were these mystical players that Poch was offered? I've only been asking for 8 years and the only name anyone has come up with is Tielemans who would have been decent but not at the Eriksen, Dele or Dembele level in that team. Not saying squad depth isn't a bad thing but I've never heard a players name mentioned that made me think Poch was wrong to make a stand against a failing recruitment team, including his chairman who left him starting pre-season in a state of flux every year.

I agree with the thrust of your post although I think Tielemans would have been a good option to add to the squad at the time and he offered something none of the 3 you mentioned had, passing quality from deep. However it's never actually been confirmed that Tielemans was offered, he just conveniently gets used now in hindsight.