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Sick sick world what is wrong with people

At that point is the shooting justified? That's for the investigation with far better evidence to decide. But it's absolutely not murder like the screeching leftists want it to be. It's not deliberate or premeditated. It's a good or bad marginal decision in a high pressure moment.

I have never once said its murder, that suggests someone turning up with the pre meditation to shoot someone, never once have I said that

My point is, hand on heart on my sons life, I look at that situation and it stuns me, literally stuns me that trained people needed to resort to shooting someone rather than using de escalation to sort the situation out. Honestly it stuns me.

Maybe having spent time round reasonable people who do the job for a living without a gun and do it to a world class level, maybe thats clouded my judgement, but I am telling you now, I stick to that

Those ICE agents IMO, from that video, not fit for the job given their handling of it.

Again, there is a massive argument for the agents to drive on to their assigned target and phone it through to local law enforcement to handle, they could have 100% driven on and left her and her GF screaming out the clouds.

There is zero way that from what that video shows that it would have met the threshold for lethal force here in the UK, I have had that from 3 cops, 2 of which (not to sound all Danish) have sent DMs during this debate
 
I have never once said its murder, that suggests someone turning up with the pre meditation to shoot someone, never once have I said that

My point is, hand on heart on my sons life, I look at that situation and it stuns me, literally stuns me that trained people needed to resort to shooting someone rather than using de escalation to sort the situation out. Honestly it stuns me.

Maybe having spent time round reasonable people who do the job for a living without a gun and do it to a world class level, maybe thats clouded my judgement, but I am telling you now, I stick to that

Those ICE agents IMO, from that video, not fit for the job given their handling of it.

Again, there is a massive argument for the agents to drive on to their assigned target and phone it through to local law enforcement to handle, they could have 100% driven on and left her and her GF screaming out the clouds.

There is zero way that from what that video shows that it would have met the threshold for lethal force here in the UK, I have had that from 3 cops, 2 of which (not to sound all Danish) have sent DMs during this debate
Local law enforcement can't deal with it, it's a federal crime. If those people then go on to stop the local agents, it's for them to deal with.

If ICE had successfully arrested her and taken her to the local jail, they'd have been turned away. They'd have had to go to the nearest county jail with a federal facility. US jurisdiction laws are fudging weird.

I suspect those people who do it for a living aren't doing it in a country where almost everyone is armed. Nor are they doing it where hundreds of "protesters" are deliberately attempting to stop them doing their jobs.

I'm glad you're not calling it murder as it clearly isn't, but technically, murder doesn't require premeditation, only 1st degree murder does.
 
Or the more evolved to give it a better description.
You are a follower of that well established right wing nut Ayn Rand I see, the same one who set up a murderer and dismemberer as a hero. William Hickman. Congratulations on that particular ideological connection! I have come across quite a few right nut jobs who have re-discovered this fascist twit!
 
But she did drive at them and then brake at the last second.

So ask yourself if you were in a car behind and saw that, would it be reasonable to stop and get her to get out of the car? Absolutely it would - you don't know that she'll stop the next time.

So now you and your colleagues are approaching the car and she's refusing to get out and beginning to drive away. She's now broken 2 federal laws, it's your responsibility to arrest her.

So everything to this point is not only reasonable but what is required of the agents.

Now, from the body cam view does it look as if she's endangering the agent(s)? I think she is, some think she isn't. But it's certainly close enough that I wouldn't expect any agent to risk their life in the hope that she isn't. Especially not having seen how close she got to driving into their cars a few seconds ago.

At that point is the shooting justified? That's for the investigation with far better evidence to decide. But it's absolutely not murder like the screeching leftists want it to be. It's not deliberate or premeditated. It's a good or bad marginal decision in a high pressure moment.
Another right winger with brick in his eyes. Goebbels was a devotee of the 'big lie', so are you it seems! 🤣
 
You are a follower of that well established right wing nut Ayn Rand I see, the same one who set up a murderer and dismemberer as a hero. William Hickman. Congratulations on that particular ideological connection! I have come across quite a few right nut jobs who have re-discovered this fascist twit!
I've never read her but if she agrees with me, she can't be all bad.
 
Local law enforcement can't deal with it, it's a federal crime. If those people then go on to stop the local agents, it's for them to deal with.

If ICE had successfully arrested her and taken her to the local jail, they'd have been turned away. They'd have had to go to the nearest county jail with a federal facility. US jurisdiction laws are fudging weird.

I suspect those people who do it for a living aren't doing it in a country where almost everyone is armed. Nor are they doing it where hundreds of "protesters" are deliberately attempting to stop them doing their jobs.

I'm glad you're not calling it murder as it clearly isn't, but technically, murder doesn't require premeditation, only 1st degree murder does.

Nope, local law enforcement can deal with federal law if working in collaboration or via instruction from federal agency, so ICE being federal could have called and used them as a tool. They could have left the scene and reported the pair of idiots and instructed law enforcement to attend and defuse.

The threshold for a threat of a gun is not perceived threat either, there has to be proof, so that doesn't really stand up either.
 
Nope, local law enforcement can deal with federal law if working in collaboration or via instruction from federal agency, so ICE being federal could have called and used them as a tool. They could have left the scene and reported the pair of idiots and instructed law enforcement to attend and defuse.

The threshold for a threat of a gun is not perceived threat either, there has to be proof, so that doesn't really stand up either.
As part of a task force or enforcing a federal warrant - neither of those were in place and would have taken longer than just arresting her.

Again, is your mate operating in a place where almost everyone has a gun? Because I know US police (don't know about ICE) are instructed to ensure they can see both hands of the target if they're not obviously complying at all times for obvious reasons. Best way to do that would be to stand close to the passenger window or directly in front.
 
Nope, local law enforcement can deal with federal law if working in collaboration or via instruction from federal agency, so ICE being federal could have called and used them as a tool. They could have left the scene and reported the pair of idiots and instructed law enforcement to attend and defuse.

The threshold for a threat of a gun is not perceived threat either, there has to be proof, so that doesn't really stand up either.

This is from my mate for what its worth:

View attachment 21217

I don't think there is much that I personally can argue with there, I am sure other will, but it seems fairly reasoned from someone with 30+ years in the job
There is not much i would argue with there either, but the key things i would highlight is that actually it boils down to individual decisions and rationale in the context of the situation. Key bits to highlight from what they have said:
- "been a hot subject for days" i.e. there is a debate amongst colleagues his/her take is just their take.
- "car considered a potential deadly weapon" as per my comments
- cops given wide discretion on determining threat in that context.
- firearms are rarely discharged. Actually this is changing as tasers (considered a firearm in law) are increasingly being issued and are increasingly being involved in discharges, injuries and deaths. Saying that the discharge of a pistol or higher powered firearm is rare in UK - comtext are they are rarely available for discharge.
- Better person than me putting up with 30+ years
 
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As part of a task force or enforcing a federal warrant - neither of those were in place and would have taken longer than just arresting her.

Again, is your mate operating in a place where almost everyone has a gun? Because I know US police (don't know about ICE) are instructed to ensure they can see both hands of the target if they're not obviously complying at all times for obvious reasons. Best way to do that would be to stand close to the passenger window or directly in front.

Which in operations where they are entering local community they are likely to be working with local law enforcement, I am sure that can be checked but I would be highly suspect if they are not working in conjunction with local law enforcement.

As to seeing her hands, I mean, I have seen two videos and you can clearly see she has both hands on the wheel, so the perceived threat of a gun threat as I can tell. I have sympathy with US enforcement and the threat of guns, I have said it on here multiple times, but sorry, I don't think adding that into the pot to try and trump on the charges on why she was a threat are relevant here TBH

As my mate said it was a tactical bodge job:

Hello Mate, yeah, Liverpool good, am back in Essex soon so lets have a beer. Been a hot subject for days. Ultimately, The vehicle's movement appears slow and short-range, with no clear evidence of high-speed ramming or direct impact. The officer, who was hit stands in front of the vehicle, we would be called up for creating the threat through poor tactical awareness, even had this not have ended up as it did, I would have been pulled over the coals for being tactically inept. The agent who tested the door should have tested once, you know straight away its locked and you step back again, tactically to take yourself out of danger, he should have then tried to talk her down off the ledge, I would say there is an argument that they created a fight or flight response from the woman. The driver despite being a nuisance and a threat to public order was generally appearing to be low in tone from her voice, he dialogue was not threatening and neither were her physical actions, no finger pointing, no reaching for a weapon, if she was stopped outside the car, you wouldn't have written her up as someone showing any signs of being threatening. She is a non target civilian, not known to the police, she was blocking the street and at least in the UK a car is considered a potential deadly weapon, but we are given wide context on that and I would be shocked if she met the threshold required here for it to have been considered to be in that situation, taking in account what I said earlier, stationary, slow potential for pace etc. In the UK even shooting at moving vehicles in high pursuit is heavily restricted by guidelines. Our first priority would be de-escalation, and firearms are rarely discharged and I can't remember one that has been in incidents much worse in the last calendar year. The fact they shot her here would suggest a lack of training or application of that training, I can see 3/4 points where they failed tactically and that's before the guns fired . The difference from here to there is not the training its a difference in reliance on a weapon, they would have talked her off a ledge had they not had the gun, having the gun available is the driving factor in why she was shot, not her actions IMO and I would be shocked if they avoid some jail time here had the situation been the same. Anyway, more cheerful stuff lets get over to see Grays before they go out of business you old clam
 
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Which in operations where they are entering local community they are likely to be working with local law enforcement, I am sure that can be checked but I would be highly suspect if they are not working in conjunction with local law enforcement.

As to seeing her hands, I mean, I have seen two videos and you can clearly see she has both hands on the wheel, so the perceived threat of a gun threat as I can tell. I have sympathy with US enforcement and the threat of guns, I have said it on here multiple times, but sorry, I don't think adding that into the pot to try and trump on the charges on why she was a threat are relevant here TBH

As my mate said it was a tactical bodge job:

Hello Mate, yeah, Liverpool good, am back in Essex soon so lets have a beer. Been a hot subject for days. Ultimately The vehicle's movement appears slow and short-range, with no clear evidence of high-speed ramming or direct impact. The officer, who was hit stands in front of the vehicle, we would be called up for creating the threat through poor tactical awareness, even had this not have ended up as it did, I would have been pulled over the coals for being tactically inept. The agent who tested the door should have tested once, you know straight away its locked and you step back again, tactically to take yourself out of danger, he should have then tried to talk her down off the ledge, I would say there is an argument that they created a fight or flight response from the woman. The driver despite being a nuisance and a threat to public order was generally appearing to be low in tone from her voice, he dialogue was not threatening and neither were her physical actions, no finger pointing, no reaching for a weapon, if she was stopped outside the car, you wouldn't have written her up as someone showing any signs of being threatening. She is a non target civilian, not known to the police, she was blocking the street and at least in the UK a car is considered a potential deadly weapon, but we are given wide context on that and I would be shocked if she met the threshold required here for it to have been considered to be in that situation, taking in account what I said earlier, stationary, slow potential for pace etc. In the UK even shooting at moving vehicles in high pursuit is heavily restricted by guidelines. Our first priority would be de-escalation, and firearms are rarely discharged and I can't remember one that has been in incidents much worse in the last calendar year. The fact they shot her here would suggest a lack of training or application of that training, I can see 3/4 points where they failed tactically and that's before the guns fired . The difference from here to there is not the training its a difference in reliance on a weapon, they would have talked her off a ledge had they not had the gun, having the gun available is the driving factor in why she was shot, not her actions IMO and I would be shocked if they avoid some jail time here had the situation been the same. Anyway, more cheerful stuff lets get over to see Grays before they go out of business you old clam
My point was that his training is almost certainly different to those in countries where everyone is armed.

US officers probably aren't trained to step back from the car because, as I've mentioned, they're trained to ensure they can see both hands at all times.

The officer in front of the car was filming her face. Having filmed the plates on the car he's moved around the front, I assume, to show who was driving for evidence of the crime(s).

At that point the car starts moving and it's all down to instantaneous decisions.

The US doesn't have an oppressive law that requires owners of a car to identify the driver, they have a robust defence against self-incrimination. So the agent has to film the person driving the car if he's going to prove in court who it was.
 
My point was that his training is almost certainly different to those in countries where everyone is armed.

US officers probably aren't trained to step back from the car because, as I've mentioned, they're trained to ensure they can see both hands at all times.

The officer in front of the car was filming her face. Having filmed the plates on the car he's moved around the front, I assume, to show who was driving for evidence of the crime(s).

At that point the car starts moving and it's all down to instantaneous decisions.

The US doesn't have an oppressive law that requires owners of a car to identify the driver, they have a robust defence against self-incrimination. So the agent has to film the person driving the car if he's going to prove in court who it was.

Of course, but there are all number of weapons in the UK that could be used as a deadly weapon, many of which are domestic items and whilst our police force is far from perfect they do a fairly world class job of de-escalation when faced with them.

I am sure plates and face could have been filmed without walking in front of an SUV, I suspect tech being what it is the ICE cars would be fitted with fairly accurate dash cams etc.

Edit: Having just watched the video again the agent has her face and plate footage already and decides to then stand infront of the car. So yeh a tactical numpty
 
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Yeah but this guy had 10 years experience.

He was dragged by a car in June so probably elements of PTSD here - but in which case he shouldn't be on active service.
You're attacked all time on job. Its the nature of it. If you took every officer off the job that had been attacked, hit/dragged by a car, had knife pulled on them, seen someones insides all over a road, etc etc you'd end up with nobody on duty within a few weeks. Met up with an old mate of mine few weeks back he was reminising about his first day on duty he tried to arrest a f*cking giant of a man outside a pub after a fight and the guy just picked him up by his stab vest and hurled him over the wall into the carpark 🤣. That's just standard Saturday night fare
 
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Did he really? Then makes his tactical situational awareness even worse.

As you say maybe PTSD
Lets talk about training, tactical situational awareness. Its like all the criticisms of those officers in the airport that got into a fight, you could criticise a lot of their tactical situational awareness based on classroom, open hands training etc, believe lead officer went to put hands on suspects back without warning which was on the hot headed side and possibly escalated situation but as Mike Tyson said try sticking to your training/plan when you're being punched in the face....you're dealing with humans not robots.
 
Lets talk about training, tactical situational awareness. Its like all the criticisms of those officers in the airport that got into a fight, you could criticise a lot of their tactical situational awareness based on classroom, open hands training etc, believe lead officer went to put hands on suspects back without warning which was on the hot headed side and possibly escalated situation but as Mike Tyson said try sticking to your training/plan when you're being punched in the face....you're dealing with humans not robots.

Thats why they have it, thats why many in the whole are very good at carrying it out. I have nothing but praise for the forces, absolutely have, again said it a million times on here. But those that get it wrong which ends up with a death, it should be called as such, hats why we also have standards

At least those in the Airport had guns available and didn't use them, world class for that.

Although I suspect had they shot them you would have been giddy with delight.
 
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Thats why they have it, thats why many in the whole are very good at carrying it out. I have nothing but praise for the forces, absolutely have, again said it a million times on here. But those that get it wrong which ends up with a death, it should be called as such, hats why we also have standards

At least those in the Airport had guns available and didn't use them, world class for that.

Although I suspect had they shot them you would have been giddy with delight
Of course i would.
 
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