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Thomas Frank - Head Coach

DeanoAustin said:
I don’t really think there is “a guy”. Poch was as close as we got and that was just a bunch of things aligning and a very good and brave manager being one of those elements. Maybe the example of Klopp at Liverpool suggests otherwise but I don’t think there is a messiah out there for us and there are a lot of things wrong at our club.

However, there are some managers who just aren’t up to it. I think it was Carragher who made the point recently that he can’t remember any manager in recent times who was successful at a lower half club playing functional/pragmatic football who was a success when they got a big job. Nuno, Hodgson and Moyes are all good examples of what he’s talking about. That’s why I have major doubts on Frank but I am willing to reserve judgement until he drags us into a relegation fight or until he has a full season.

That said, most of what I’ve seen to date, from the performances to the players’ behaviour to his utterances in press conferences suggest to me that he’s out of his depth.
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It’s such an interesting point, Carragher’s. I’m racking my brains and trying to find the exception to that.

A lot of things aligned with Poch, but I think he also had a special sort of charisma. It was his style of football, but also his style of leadership that could translate well to a higher level. He’s not Ancelotti. And didn’t just give unlimited freedom to experienced players, but he does trust attackers in particular. I remember also reading that Cortesi hired him at Southampton after seeing him on the touch line for Espanyol and knowing then he had something special. It’s actually incredible insight. I wonder what Cortesi is doing now.

Anyway, I am really trying to rack my brains. Who is the pragmatist manager at a mid table club who successfully stepped up to a regular European finisher? And if there isn’t a very good example, why did we decide to try that again? I get that Frank evolved over time to get Brentford into a ‘nicer’ style, but he simply won’t have the same time here. I also think there’s an open question on whether you can change a leaders instincts. When under pressure the real you comes out. If you’re a pragmatist then you’ll be a pragmatist. You won’t suddenly be comfortable going all out just because you have better players, you’ll inherently do what got you to advance to that point in your career.
 
DeanoAustin said:
I don’t really think there is “a guy”. Poch was as close as we got and that was just a bunch of things aligning and a very good and brave manager being one of those elements. Maybe the example of Klopp at Liverpool suggests otherwise but I don’t think there is a messiah out there for us and there are a lot of things wrong at our club.

However, there are some managers who just aren’t up to it. I think it was Carragher who made the point recently that he can’t remember any manager in recent times who was successful at a lower half club playing functional/pragmatic football who was a success when they got a big job. Nuno, Hodgson and Moyes are all good examples of what he’s talking about. That’s why I have major doubts on Frank but I am willing to reserve judgement until he drags us into a relegation fight or until he has a full season.

That said, most of what I’ve seen to date, from the performances to the players’ behaviour to his utterances in press conferences suggest to me that he’s out of his depth.
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Imo the work that has been done in recent years with recruitment of younger players seems to be an attempt to get another "alignment". Perhaps the Lewis family wanting to invest (pinch of salt until it happens) can be another.

Manager needs to be part of that alignment. I'm not seeing it yet with Frank, but like let's see, give it time. But to me that's also because I don't see a "that guy" available manager to replace him with.
 
SissokoWasGood (BoL) said:
It’s such an interesting point, Carragher’s. I’m racking my brains and trying to find the exception to that.

A lot of things aligned with Poch, but I think he also had a special sort of charisma. It was his style of football, but also his style of leadership that could translate well to a higher level. He’s not Ancelotti. And didn’t just give unlimited freedom to experienced players, but he does trust attackers in particular. I remember also reading that Cortesi hired him at Southampton after seeing him on the touch line for Espanyol and knowing then he had something special. It’s actually incredible insight. I wonder what Cortesi is doing now.

Anyway, I am really trying to rack my brains. Who is the pragmatist manager at a mid table club who successfully stepped up to a regular European finisher? And if there isn’t a very good example, why did we decide to try that again? I get that Frank evolved over time to get Brentford into a ‘nicer’ style, but he simply won’t have the same time here. I also think there’s an open question on whether you can change a leaders instincts. When under pressure the real you comes out. If you’re a pragmatist then you’ll be a pragmatist. You won’t suddenly be comfortable going all out just because you have better players, you’ll inherently do what got you to advance to that point in your career.
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Agreed on other examples, but also a rather small sample size.

Agreed on the under pressure thing. He's under pressure now so I'll guess we'll see.

The way I see it he's tried to do something similar here to what he did at Brentford to get to a "nicer style". Start with defending, set pieces, then evolve. Perhaps trying to accelerate the timeline here compared to at Brentford. As you say, doing the thing that's gotten him here.

Definitely agree that things aligned when Poch was here. I think it's fair to say that things aligned for Frank at Brentford too.
 
Lemonade Money said:
Stop over analysing, and start over supporting.
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I don't get the over analysis of press conferences to be honest. I said it with Ange, people were just looking to twist things he said that just wasn't there to be criticised and it seems the same is beginning to happen with Frank.

I watched the press conference yesterday and seemed fair and fine to me, nothing screamed out he said that was particularly wrong so surprised to see the reaction on here. I'm not convinced he's the man for the job but that's based solely on what's going on pitchside.

Had we been doing better, Frank could have come out with an identical interview and no one would be taking the slant on it they are now.....
 
DeanoAustin said:
I don’t really think there is “a guy”. Poch was as close as we got and that was just a bunch of things aligning and a very good and brave manager being one of those elements. Maybe the example of Klopp at Liverpool suggests otherwise but I don’t think there is a messiah out there for us and there are a lot of things wrong at our club.

However, there are some managers who just aren’t up to it. I think it was Carragher who made the point recently that he can’t remember any manager in recent times who was successful at a lower half club playing functional/pragmatic football who was a success when they got a big job. Nuno, Hodgson and Moyes are all good examples of what he’s talking about. That’s why I have major doubts on Frank but I am willing to reserve judgement until he drags us into a relegation fight or until he has a full season.

That said, most of what I’ve seen to date, from the performances to the players’ behaviour to his utterances in press conferences suggest to me that he’s out of his depth.
Click to expand...
It’s a good point. It’s hard to shift from being the underdog to the supposed favourite in games. To go from being reactionary to be expected to be proactive.

I said when we got him hopefully he has a plan around how to step up in levels and isn’t a new version of Curbishley
 
harr1984 said:
I don't get the over analysis of press conferences to be honest. I said it with Ange, people were just looking to twist things he said that just wasn't there to be criticised and it seems the same is beginning to happen with Frank.

I watched the press conference yesterday and seemed fair and fine to me, nothing screamed out he said that was particularly wrong so surprised to see the reaction on here. I'm not convinced he's the man for the job but that's based solely on what's going on pitchside.

Had we been doing better, Frank could have come out with an identical interview and no one would be taking the slant on it they are now.....
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Fair enough and I can see that POV. I didn't care for it.
 
thfcsteff said:
Have to say, Simon was a MASSIVE loss. Really top guy who absolutely knew his stuff. Really interesting observation...I mean, the path is clear?
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Yeah, it's a massively underrated role at the club and vocationally more your world then mine. I thought the club were clumsy in their comms in the past, but have got better in recent years. I think it is incredibly important for the publicly facing people like Frank to be on message at all times. I think sometimes that is really hard when the club have an agreed strategy but it is not taking shape. Some of the condescending tones coming out of the comms in the past really spoke to a cultural problem with the fan relationship.

Through those periods, you need the manager to hold firm. I didn't see it with Harry who would make some little side swipes at Levy in a lot of his interviews. Poch did better than most but eventually let his guard down. I never expected Jose or Conte to be that persona, but had high hopes for Ange. Ultimately though, Ange went rogue as well perhaps with mitigating circumstances.

It's still honeymoon period for Frank. He's not going to drop the subtle messaging yet that we've seen from the others. Ange's comment about "them" having meetings about transfers and him not being invited was of course very telling after what happened next. We won't see that from Frank at this stage and perhaps he's more like Nuno where you never will.

I'm feeling you can have a guy as great as Felstein, but you don't really get to control the managers if they want to be cryptic and have a little pop at their employers through the media.
 
Muttley said:
Yeah, it's a massively underrated role at the club and vocationally more your world then mine. I thought the club were clumsy in their comms in the past, but have got better in recent years. I think it is incredibly important for the publicly facing people like Frank to be on message at all times. I think sometimes that is really hard when the club have an agreed strategy but it is not taking shape. Some of the condescending tones coming out of the comms in the past really spoke to a cultural problem with the fan relationship.

Through those periods, you need the manager to hold firm. I didn't see it with Harry who would make some little side swipes at Levy in a lot of his interviews. Poch did better than most but eventually let his guard down. I never expected Jose or Conte to be that persona, but had high hopes for Ange. Ultimately though, Ange went rogue as well perhaps with mitigating circumstances.

It's still honeymoon period for Frank. He's not going to drop the subtle messaging yet that we've seen from the others. Ange's comment about "them" having meetings about transfers and him not being invited was of course very telling after what happened next. We won't see that from Frank at this stage and perhaps he's more like Nuno where you never will.

I'm feeling you can have a guy as great as Felstein, but you don't really get to control the managers if they want to be cryptic and have a little pop at their employers through the media.
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The beauty of Poch and Felstein was how they worked as a partnership against the aggressive elements of the press. You could often see the eye contact exchanges and non verbal coaching going on. Poch was also happy to be interrupted when he was struggling a bit, which less secure coaches arent. The mutual trust was clear to see and mainly it was Poch being happy to be guided by the expert
 
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