Bullet
Paul Stewart
Can you give examples; to my mind Palhinha is almost always in the correct position to make defensive challenges
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João Palhinha
- Thread starter mjc23
- Start date
ricky2tricky4city
Colin Calderwood
Consider yourself flamed!
metalgear
Chris Jones
firstly i want to restate that palhinha is a good player and something we need now to solidify our game. also injuries to key central midfield players don't help, i see Palhinha is a very classical all out destroyer with less input on the attacking front. these type of players went out of fashion because of posession football for various reasons, modern DMs are able to initiate, create and score
maybe this guy explains it better:
this heat map of palhinha (and bentancur) kinda explains the lack of structure that i see ... but its more apparent in game
Bullet
Paul Stewart
Hang on, you started out by saying "Paulinha's expansive forward running comes at a cost and will give coaches a headache because of the gaps he leaves behind."
I queried whether Palhinha charges forwards and leaves gaps behind him.
Now you are changing that to "Palhinha is a very classical all out destroyer with less input on the attacking front. these type of players went out of fashion because of posession football for various reasons, modern DMs are able to initiate, create and score"
These aren't the same arguments.
I queried whether Palhinha charges forwards and leaves gaps behind him.
Now you are changing that to "Palhinha is a very classical all out destroyer with less input on the attacking front. these type of players went out of fashion because of posession football for various reasons, modern DMs are able to initiate, create and score"
These aren't the same arguments.
metalgear
Chris Jones
agree it it isn't but its related - so apologies if i have caused confusion.
perhaps paulinha is part of a larger problem - bentancur and him roaming adventurously, with little ability for quick transitions into attack equals missed opportunities.
back to paulinha - he wouldn't have been my first choice because i would have preferred more modern hybrid midfielders who can attack and defend - and in particular get shots on target and score goals. see chelsea, Emirates Marketing Project and aresenal for examples. the modern press is also about quick transitions. for all his ball successful interceptions they haven't translated into an increase in Xgs.
i don't know if you're watching bayern but they've replaced paulinha with a combo of kimmich and pavlovic in CM. both are hybrid defensive mids - very mobile and are super at transitionining forwards so helping bayern be a very attacking team and very nice to watch.
I confess i am rambling through this observation and still forming my thoughts - the upcoming games against chelsea (caicedo) and arsenal (rice) will be excellent opportunities to compare. Maybe we can hold off the discussion til then.
perhaps paulinha is part of a larger problem - bentancur and him roaming adventurously, with little ability for quick transitions into attack equals missed opportunities.
back to paulinha - he wouldn't have been my first choice because i would have preferred more modern hybrid midfielders who can attack and defend - and in particular get shots on target and score goals. see chelsea, Emirates Marketing Project and aresenal for examples. the modern press is also about quick transitions. for all his ball successful interceptions they haven't translated into an increase in Xgs.
i don't know if you're watching bayern but they've replaced paulinha with a combo of kimmich and pavlovic in CM. both are hybrid defensive mids - very mobile and are super at transitionining forwards so helping bayern be a very attacking team and very nice to watch.
I confess i am rambling through this observation and still forming my thoughts - the upcoming games against chelsea (caicedo) and arsenal (rice) will be excellent opportunities to compare. Maybe we can hold off the discussion til then.
Do you really think that our attacking problems stem from Paulinha, or because he is not a "modern hybrid midfielder"? Then I guess we are seeing different teams playing under the name of Tottenham Hotspur....
As for Bayern... something tells me that having the likes of Kane, Gnabry, Olise and Diaz as your front four may just have something to do with being an attacking and exciting team.
As for Bayern... something tells me that having the likes of Kane, Gnabry, Olise and Diaz as your front four may just have something to do with being an attacking and exciting team.
Grays_1890
Erik Thorstvedt
Course it doesn't, he is doing his job and doing it well, he is also showing leadership skills on the pitch beyond what anyone is.
The issue comes because:
A - We are playing two DMs where IMO he would be suited next to Sarr or Bergvall more
B - our LW and ST is near on redundant.
He has been an absolute bright light in this season so far
braineclipse
Garth Crooks
On "A" - for me Sarr isn't a significantly better fit next to Palhinha. Sarr is more ambitious in his forward running off the ball and if he has space to run in with the ball he's obviously really good at that.
But the biggest problem has been progressing the ball through midfield, what the midfielders do on the ball in tighter spaces and under some pressure. I think Bentancur is at least on par with Sarr on that, arguably better.
If Bentancur and Palhinha can do more of what they've been doing in the last couple of games (I know Palhinha played CB against Saudi Sportswashing Machine). I think the pair of them is a better choice than Palhinha and Sarr.
Bergvall or Gray been ready for real minutes in tough games and good enough defensively for that kind of role could be a significant step though.
Grays_1890
Erik Thorstvedt
TBH though my point was more towards attacking intent not being Pauls fault because he is playing with another DM. For my money Sarr progresses the ball better and gets in advanced areas more, I think that benefits Xavi who needs outlets to perform at best, considering he has no CF or decent LW to aim at either. All of which again is not Pauls fault, to the original point.
Ultimately he is doing his job and doing it well
metalgear
Chris Jones
I think Paulinha is a pure destroyer and doesn't have the tools to be a modern hybrid midfielder. He gets the ball but we are slow to transition into attack. its one and the same problem to me. A big caveat here is Bentancur's role as they have to work together in maintaining a presence in midfield.
True that with that front four it eases the pressure off the midfield. Our problem is vertical passes through the midfield. Modric and Carrick were prime examples of excellent midfielders who occupied the midfield without high energy pressing and tackling and yet provided a fulcrum for quick attacks from the middle of the park.
Yes - Paulinha is in the team to be a pure destroyer. So his effectiveness can only be gauged on that basis.... and, boy, does he pass that test with flying colours. Our problem isn't "just" vertical passes through midfield. It is that our complete lack of genuinely creative players. The two who fit that definition are in the treatment room, their replacement is struggling to adapt to the premier league and - despite an obvious titanic sized gap in left wing - we failed to replace our world class captain in that position over the summer.
The problem is not Paulinha.... it is what is around him; or the lack of it. If they could do their creative job, half as well as the Portughese does his, we wouldn't even be having this conversation....
The problem is not Paulinha.... it is what is around him; or the lack of it. If they could do their creative job, half as well as the Portughese does his, we wouldn't even be having this conversation....
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braineclipse
Garth Crooks
I agree that Sarr is really good at getting into those attacking areas where he can then be a threat, create space and combine with others like Xavi.
But a big part of our problems has been getting the ball there, through the lines. At that I think Sarr is still fairly limited.
Some real positive signs in recent games showing more attacking intent on the ball. Seeing more progressive moves from Palhinha, Bentancur and Sarr. I'm interested to see how that develops over a bit more time.
Bishop
Chris Perry
We need a passing 8 , I've been saying it for bloody years at this rate. I like all of Bentancur, Sarr and Bergvall but the profiles are either too similar or just can't do what we need then to do. Now we've addressed some of the other faults a passing capable CM should be high on the priority list. Add that player to a high quality level and our improvement with the ball will be dramatic.
Time for Don Fabio to earn his keep... 45M should do it for Rovella who has been sensational... https://onefootball.com/en/news/bes...s-inter-milan-juventus-men-on-podium-40777639
Bishop
Chris Perry
Ederson and Locatelli are the two from the lisy I know reasonably well and rate quite highly. Rovella I haven't watched tbh.
Bullet
Paul Stewart
I'm suspicious of that chart.
Rovella might have been doing more defensive actions because Lazio are a bit brick, compared to Juve, Inter etc.
And Mkhitaryan is 36.
And McTominay has 2 goals and an assist yet is almost last on offensive actions, so I think the chart is misleading.
Rovella might have been doing more defensive actions because Lazio are a bit brick, compared to Juve, Inter etc.
And Mkhitaryan is 36.
And McTominay has 2 goals and an assist yet is almost last on offensive actions, so I think the chart is misleading.
Understandable since you clearly do not follow Italian football... Rovella's main strength is his deep playmaking capability... but he's also pretty useful defensively. He outscores the mentioned Locatelli and Ederson for overall passes, long passes and forward passes... the latter by two to one! And he is with a club that is in financial problems and subject to a transfer ban.
Bishop
Chris Perry
The stats aren't measuring the more overt but basic attacking stats ie. Goals and assists. It's looking at more subtle things like progressive passes, dribbles, key passes, fouls won etc even some defensive aspects that lead to goals like recoveries and combines them all together into a single stat; GCA.
So it's very possible as it is in this case for someone to have scored more and had more assists yet rank lower on GCA because that's just not what it is measuring.
metalgear
Chris Jones
see what caicedo did yesterday - he is a destroyer plus. doesn't go around to try to win all tackles but falls back into a structure so that the team can play their part. only destroys to punish. if Paulinha needs to come close he needs to win the ball and play a useful ball that can turn into attack quickly, instead of passing it to the nearest player after completing his part. what about pushing forward himself to receive the ball in attack... palhinha regains possession but we do not get a clear advantage and that's why a a lot of teams dispense with pure DMs today.
parklane1
Teddy Sheringham
This without a doubt.