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The 'If You Still Need to Purge Yourself Of Ange' Thread

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  • Total voters
    36
thfcsteff said:
I am genuinely not looking to be argumentative/a bellend, but at the highest level, where it was all about margins, he was more pragmatic and he won the Europa League?!! He did it.

BTW, apropos of nothing other than a bit of mischief making, in Dec 2021 when we had 8 players testing positive for Covid, Conte chose to forfeit the game against Rennes in the Conference League rather than put a side out and find a way to get the job done. We went out of the tournament.
In 20/21, Mourinho could not get us past the last 16 of the Europa League, going out to Dinamo Zagreb. A pair of winners...(again, to be clear, NOT aimed at you specificallty, just making a somewhat aggravating and inflammatory factual point in general with regards to these competitions)...
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but he didn't in the league? from the semi where he rolled out the 4-2-4 model, I really would have liked to see him do that in the league. The issue is he didn't believe he needed to (stubborn, belief, whatever reason), and part of the final evaluation is regardless of success in EL, he reverted to norm in league (I gave my explanations above)

Re Conte & Jose mate? the 2nd biggest gift Ange gave me as a fan is those fudges need to keep Spurs out of their fudging mouth from here on it, all the brick about Spurs, fudge them, they had a team with prime Kane & Son and failed to deliver what a manager who never managed in a top 5 league was able to do .. their failures are on them despite their bricky deflections.
 
Raziel said:
but he didn't in the league? from the semi where he rolled out the 4-2-4 model, I really would have liked to see him do that in the league. The issue is he didn't believe he needed to (stubborn, belief, whatever reason), and part of the final evaluation is regardless of success in EL, he reverted to norm in league (I gave my explanations above)

Re Conte & Jose mate? the 2nd biggest gift Ange gave me as a fan is those fudges need to keep Spurs out of their fudging mouth from here on it, all the brick about Spurs, fudge them, they had a team with prime Kane & Son and failed to deliver what a manager who never managed in a top 5 league was able to do .. their failures are on them despite their bricky deflections.
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...and with that last paragraph of near-literary perfection, I think this is a perfect place to shake hands and move forth with Franky-boy :)
 
BrainOfLevy said:
Gonna try and not bite on the ‘at the highest level it doesn’t work’ bit.

To your last point though - if playing the odds is actually what it takes, why is Mourinho not still at a top club? He is all about the ‘odds’.

My point is just that every manager has their way. And a lot of times it doesn’t look like it’s going to work until it does. I do not believe there is any such thing as the perfect system / combination between pragmatism and idealism. I believe all managers have their way, and that history is written by the winners. Often this means that a manager picked the perfect club for them, and they got everything in place, and were able to succeed. And other times it means a great manager (I’m not saying this about Ange) got a chance, but it was the wrong time, at the wrong club, and we may never know. There are only so many clubs, and there can only be so many winners, and top clubs do not give up and coming managers multiple goes, they chew them up and appoint the next big thing.

Take Graham Potter. He got his opportunity at Chelsea. Was it too big for him? Maybe. Was he actually just not good enough? Also maybe. But I just don’t know that you can write Potter off as not good enough for that level because he was the first manager under a group of owners that were finding their own way in this game and league. We’ll never know if he made a better move for himself whether he would continue to ascend.
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Everything is odds, how you approach a press, how you manage set pieces, transitions, it's all about small advantages, my point is Ange (in the league) gave up too many of those percentages to the opposition for not enough reward, the EL proves it

- Last 5 EL games, primarily played a 4-2-4 with 2 sitting and the defenders not playing the high line all the time, FBs being a little more cautious, Vicario kicking the ball long on far more occasions, result? 4 wins and 1 draw, 3 clean sheets, 8 goals scored, 2 goals conceded
- Last 5 PL games, 4-3-3 that is really 2-3-5 in possession (with a number of gaps), 4 losses, 1 draw, 0 clean sheets, 3 goals scored, 14 goals conceded.

And someone will say EL opposition is brick, I can cite Leicester, Ipswich, Wolves, list of utter brick PL teams we loss to, often at home.

Yes, managers are always time/place/squad, it's like real estate is location, sales is territory and timing.
 
Raziel said:
They have a place in pro football, his record proves that, it's worked at a pretty decent level.

Does it work at the absolute highest level? PL data says no, not consistently enough. The whole thread is a bit of a re-hash but to me, remains pretty simple.

You had a manager that a certain way of playing has brought him success for 29 years, every time he got into a bad run, doubling down on the original plan worked, hence from his perspective (and human inclination to fight change and/or accept personal flaws), this was just another bump to ride out, it would improve, it always had.

The issue is the core of the system is a trade off between chances created and chances given up, and I believe that balance breaks at top level, too often your opposition will be able to convert their chances at equal or higher rate than you, especially when they do more in game management than you, and when your system does not play to your own players strengths/quality difference.

He's a character in the game, similar in some ways to a Bielsa, the game is probably better for it, fans will love a certain part of them, but at the highest level, where it's all about margins, you have to be more pragmatic, play the odds. ..
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Bielsa is a very good comparison actually. Leeds fans loved Bielsa, he got them promoted and they surprised a lot of teams by overwhelming them in an attacking sense and they finished top half, but by season two he'd been worked out in that if you can get pass the high intensity they're wide open and he got sacked after conceding 17 goals in a 4 loss losing streak.

I also totally agree with your "top teir breaks the trade-off balance" but I'd also add that he's had injury problems dog him in initial seasons at all his previous clubs. He has always been able to overcome them and he has said its a product of the way he trains and plays and that the players have to endure to adapt. I think though that the intensity and fixture congestion at this level means you simply cannot endurance and advanced sports science your way over the stress you're putting on these players. I.e. Celtic generally play, what, 15 (?) really intense ganes a season? At Spurs it is pretty much every game.
 
Raziel said:
Everything is odds, how you approach a press, how you manage set pieces, transitions, it's all about small advantages, my point is Ange (in the league) gave up too many of those percentages to the opposition for not enough reward, the EL proves it

- Last 5 EL games, primarily played a 4-2-4 with 2 sitting and the defenders not playing the high line all the time, FBs being a little more cautious, Vicario kicking the ball long on far more occasions, result? 4 wins and 1 draw, 3 clean sheets, 8 goals scored, 2 goals conceded
- Last 5 PL games, 4-3-3 that is really 2-3-5 in possession (with a number of gaps), 4 losses, 1 draw, 0 clean sheets, 3 goals scored, 14 goals conceded.

And someone will say EL opposition is brick, I can cite Leicester, Ipswich, Wolves, list of utter brick PL teams we loss to, often at home.

Yes, managers are always time/place/squad, it's like real estate is location, sales is territory and timing.
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I agree with you, everything is odds. What I’m saying is that things sometimes look like they won’t work until they do.

Amorim is going to be way better with United next season. I’m sure of it. He took a lot of losses this year. When he gets more of the right pieces, he’s going to look a lot better. What previously looked like naivety or stubbornness is going to suddenly look smart.

Ange had different challenges. But I’m equally sure in my belief that better, deeper more experienced squad and normalised injuries, suddenly the naivety and stubbornness looks like genius.
 
Silly McSilly Face said:
Bielsa is a very good comparison actually. Leeds fans loved Bielsa, he got them promoted and they surprised a lot of teams by overwhelming them in an attacking sense and they finished top half, but by season two he'd been worked out in that if you can get pass the high intensity they're wide open and he got sacked after conceding 17 goals in a 4 loss losing streak.

I also totally agree with your "top teir breaks the trade-off balance" but I'd also add that he's had injury problems dog him in initial seasons at all his previous clubs. He has always been able to overcome them and he has said its a product of the way he trains and plays and that the players have to endure to adapt. I think though that the intensity and fixture congestion at this level means you simply cannot endurance and advanced sports science your way over the stress you're putting on these players. I.e. Celtic generally play, what, 15 (?) really intense ganes a season? At Spurs it is pretty much every game.
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I think I saw a clip of a podcast recently with Bamford talking about that second season. And he said that yes, Bielsa is uncompromising, and eventually teams have a plan to face you down. But he also said that to keep winning beyond the surprise factor you need your best players available to perform at the top level. And the moment they started losing they had lost the spine of their team, key players that made it work.
 
BrainOfLevy said:
I agree with you, everything is odds. What I’m saying is that things sometimes look like they won’t work until they do.

Amorim is going to be way better with United next season. I’m sure of it. He took a lot of losses this year. When he gets more of the right pieces, he’s going to look a lot better. What previously looked like naivety or stubbornness is going to suddenly look smart.

Ange had different challenges. But I’m equally sure in my belief that better, deeper more experienced squad and normalised injuries, suddenly the naivety and stubbornness looks like genius.
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I wouldn't take that bet, United did, we will all see
 
BrainOfLevy said:
I think I saw a clip of a podcast recently with Bamford talking about that second season. And he said that yes, Bielsa is uncompromising, and eventually teams have a plan to face you down. But he also said that to keep winning beyond the surprise factor you need your best players available to perform at the top level. And the moment they started losing they had lost the spine of their team, key players that made it work.
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Yeah, thats the thing, Ange's system only looked vaguely workable for me for example when VDV was playing as that "ball over the top" wasnt such an obvious weapon when you have that recovery pace, saying that, just how common is it to get a 6ft plus CB with that sort of acceleration and sprint speed? He's a bit of a freak of nature.
 
Raziel said:
He probably has till October or November to turn it around (very unlikely), so it's quite possible United is doing the ETH thing again (without the trophy) and not only will they have a limited pool of managers to choose from at that point, but less money, more players potentially not aligned to system manager wants to play.
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Think you need to be giving him a whole season.
Considering he came in November last season. To potentially sack him in November just comes across as trigger happy.
 
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