ENIC

[thfcsteff]

Not really, that is a myth

- Klopp had joined in 2015, Liverpool had won a cup in 2012 (3 years earlier), we had been more than double that
- The previous decade they won 4 trophies (would be the second best decade of our history), we had won 1.
- Their income was consistently higher than ours
- Liverpool had 8 top 4 finishes and 11 top 6 finishes in the 15 years prior to Klopp, Spurs had 2 top 4 & 8 top 6.

Liverpool is a vastly bigger club, they stumbled for a 4 year period but we never caught up. It's the equivalent to West Ham in 5 years from now saying they failed to capitalize on that time they were ahead of Spurs.

Sigh. I know what Liverpool Football Club is about.

What I am talking about is NOT a 'myth' it is a reality.
Two exciting young managers in the league bringing a new level of pressing to the game.

On Oct 17th 2017, there was this game. Spurs 4 Liverpool 1. We were 3rd in the table and Liverpool were 9th. Remember, we'd spent the previous two seasons as the best club in the Prem (there was that weird stat where over two seasons we were the 'best')...
...Liverpool sold Coutinho and immediately addressed two areas Klopp felt were key. Keeper and CB. Remember too that the previous close season, we did not get either Mane or Winaldjum over the line (Mitchell quit, etc). I think it's fair to say that Allison and Van Dyk were transformative signings which helped Liverpool gain the platform to stride into great things.

We finished 10 points ahead of Liverpool in 2015/16
We finished 10 points ahead of Liverpool in 2016/17
We finished 2 points ahead of Liverpool in 2017/18
We finshed 26 points behind Liverpool in 2018/19


We spent a few years AHEAD of Liverpool and AHEAD of what Klopp was doing. The difference came in how each club operates.

Your West Ham equivalent is wrong because they have never had that level over us in the Premier League (or any that I can recall).

 

[glorygloryeze]

I'm not intimate with the Arsenal squad but I'm guessing they are at the point where they have depth in most positions so spending £100m on a single player makes sense if they have the PSR runway. They are well run so probably do, even though they've ramped up the debt in recent years.

Then you have to ask yourself who fits the bill, and the answer is always Isak. I reckon they could really unsettle the player who has only 2 years left on his contract. He's only on £120k a week as well so plenty of scope for improvement there. Saudi Sportswashing Machine has to get this guy tied down to a deal or the writing will be on the wall for his exit.

Will be interesting to see who misses out on CL at the top out of the 4 clubs fighting for 3 places.

Yeah, i think if they really want Isak there is scope for hem to blow their wad for him...IF they really want him that is.

I think it will also be interesting who gets top 5 and who misses out. I think that would have a knock-on effect on us and I certainly Chelsea missing out would be good for us...then again, i thought that a few years ago when we were the only London club in the CL, so actually given how we are what does it matter lol

 

[glorygloryeze]

Sigh. I know what Liverpool Football Club is about.

What I am talking about is NOT a 'myth' it is a reality.
In fact, I'll be more precise and present to you the moment when we were exactly at that point. Oct 17th 2017, Spurs 4 Liverpool 1. We were 3rd in the table and Liverpool were 9th. Remember, we'd spent the previous two seasons as the best club in the Prem (there was that weird stat where over two seasons we were the 'best')...
...Liverpool sold Coutinho and immediately addressed two areas Klopp felt were key. Keeper and CB. Remember too that the previous close season, we did not get either Mane or Winaldjum over the line (Mitchell quit, etc). I think it's fair to say that Allison and Van Dyk were transformative signings which helped Liverpool gain the platform to stride into great things.

We finished 10 points ahead of Liverpool in 2015/16
We finished 10 points ahead of Liverpool in 2016/17
We finished 2 points ahead of Liverpool in 2017/18
We finshed 26 points behind Liverpool in 2018/19

We spent a few years AHEAD of Liverpool and AHEAD of what Klopp was doing. The difference came in how each club operates.

Your West Ham equivalent is wrong because they have never had that level over us in the Premier League (or any that I can recall).

Excatly. The way some people bend criteria to give us excuses in one breath and then claim Liverpool "aren't all that" in another lol

 

[billyiddo]

I think a stadium build is a more than reasonable enough explanation for why the two clubs paths diverted at that point.

 

[Muttley]

Sigh. I know what Liverpool Football Club is about.

What I am talking about is NOT a 'myth' it is a reality.
In fact, I'll be more precise and present to you the moment when we were exactly at that point. Oct 17th 2017, Spurs 4 Liverpool 1. We were 3rd in the table and Liverpool were 9th. Remember, we'd spent the previous two seasons as the best club in the Prem (there was that weird stat where over two seasons we were the 'best')...
...Liverpool sold Coutinho and immediately addressed two areas Klopp felt were key. Keeper and CB. Remember too that the previous close season, we did not get either Mane or Winaldjum over the line (Mitchell quit, etc). I think it's fair to say that Allison and Van Dyk were transformative signings which helped Liverpool gain the platform to stride into great things.

We finished 10 points ahead of Liverpool in 2015/16
We finished 10 points ahead of Liverpool in 2016/17
We finished 2 points ahead of Liverpool in 2017/18
We finshed 26 points behind Liverpool in 2018/19

We spent a few years AHEAD of Liverpool and AHEAD of what Klopp was doing. The difference came in how each club operates.

Your West Ham equivalent is wrong because they have never had that level over us in the Premier League (or any that I can recall).

The John Henry / Fenway Sports Group is actually a great story. I can't do anything but admire what a farmer's son Henry has achieved in his lifetime. Football people are snobbish in that they believe you have to be a sports person to work in football. Henry has proven that running winning clubs like Red Sox is transferable. The first thing he did when he bought Liverpool was hired an exec whose sole job was to bridge the Atlantic. He made sure that LFC had a man sitting at his table back in the US and advocating for them. Then FSG built out all those layers you're now seeing THFC build. We've brought our own man in who has Rugby, Athletics and Football experience. All Spurs fans do is make him the spacegoat.

My advice to THFC would be to keep going with this new structure. Build everything to keep our new manager as the point of the spear just like LFC did to make Klopp successful.

The harsh realisation for me was when LFC got Wijnaldum and Mane whilst we got Sissoko. It wasn't so much when all those crazy deals with Neymar, Coutinho, VVD etc were setup as dominoes. That was just one of those things that happens in football. It was the day-to-day management of LFC that was more impressive. Years and years of fantastic signings just like the 3 midfield lads that owned us on Sunday. What great signings they've been.

THFC have to become the same operations machine that we're seeing from LFC and AFC. It doesn't feel like it right now, but we're doing so many of the right things to get the right model in place. We need our own Klopp though.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Tottenham and Arsenal greatly diverged after we pipped them in May 2022 to CL, we've gone in greatly opposite direction...do we blame the stadium build for that too or just our own incompetence?

 

[Muttley]

Tottenham and Arsenal greatly diverged after we pipped them in May 2022 to CL, we've gone in greatly opposite direction...do we blame the stadium build for that too or just our own incompetence?

We've had Jose, Nuno, Conte and now Ange and every time we have done a reset. Every time we have haemorrhaged considerable amounts building a new squad. We've flip-flopped between different football philosophies and paid a heavy price.

This is why we must now transition seamlessly from Ange. Fortunately for us, Paratici had already started buying Spurs players in Conte's tenure. We now must bring this who thing together without another project restart.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Sigh. I know what Liverpool Football Club is about.

What I am talking about is NOT a 'myth' it is a reality.
Two exciting young managers in the league bringing a new level of pressing to the game.

On Oct 17th 2017, there was this game. Spurs 4 Liverpool 1. We were 3rd in the table and Liverpool were 9th. Remember, we'd spent the previous two seasons as the best club in the Prem (there was that weird stat where over two seasons we were the 'best')...
...Liverpool sold Coutinho and immediately addressed two areas Klopp felt were key. Keeper and CB. Remember too that the previous close season, we did not get either Mane or Winaldjum over the line (Mitchell quit, etc). I think it's fair to say that Allison and Van Dyk were transformative signings which helped Liverpool gain the platform to stride into great things.

We finished 10 points ahead of Liverpool in 2015/16
We finished 10 points ahead of Liverpool in 2016/17
We finished 2 points ahead of Liverpool in 2017/18
We finshed 26 points behind Liverpool in 2018/19


We spent a few years AHEAD of Liverpool and AHEAD of what Klopp was doing. The difference came in how each club operates.

Your West Ham equivalent is wrong because they have never had that level over us in the Premier League (or any that I can recall).

...and perhaps a little in how Barcelona operates .....if only there was a dufus on every street corner. Ruined them

West Ham are champions of Europe....I've heard them sing it

 

[billyiddo]

Tottenham and Arsenal greatly diverged after we pipped them in May 2022 to CL, we've gone in greatly opposite direction...do we blame the stadium build for that too or just our own incompetence?

Why would we do that?

 

[glorygloryeze]

Why would we do that?

Do what? I gave two options

 

[billyiddo]

Do what? I gave two options

Why would we blame the stadium for something happening in 2022? You clearly don't see it as valid re Klopp/Poch divergence but rather than explain why you've tried to dismiss it by conflating it to a seperate situation from a different period. A very tedious/tiring way of having a discussion tbqh

 

[markysimmo]

Perhaps, but i suspect it's more Arteta believing he can also create a title-winning team without one (trying to emulate Pep).
This summer for them (especially if they DON'T win the CL) will be very interesting/telling.

The longer you leave strengthening an obvious hole, he more expensive it gets

I'm with you on this, Arteta is like Pep thinks he can do things differently and win by not doing what the footballing world says he should do, confidence/arrogance who knows

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Tottenham and Arsenal greatly diverged after we pipped them in May 2022 to CL, we've gone in greatly opposite direction...do we blame the stadium build for that too or just our own incompetence?

Not really
They had Lego head in charge
We had a guy in charge who took the job because no one else wanted him or us
The next season he imploded … Lego head didn’t
They have thrown money the squad and so have we but we haven’t had any stability on any level
Clubs make choices and some are some are awful and some indifferent. We have made some poor ones for sure
It’s always what you do next that matters

 

[glorygloryeze]

Why would we blame the stadium for something happening in 2022? You clearly don't see it as valid re Klopp/Poch divergence but rather than explain why you've tried to dismiss it by conflating it to a seperate situation from a different period. A very tedious/tiring way of having a discussion tbqh

I try to look back over twenty years plus of decisions and directions of travel under our ownership; there have been multiple times they ahve shown their inability (incompetence) in pushing the club forward, i mean REALLY forward. Whenever people compare with other clubs, rather than look inward at our constant missteps/inability to really act like an ambitious big club there's always an excuse of:

- "the club were catching up on nearly going bankrupt"
- "the club don't have the advantage of x years of constant CL football and all the money that brings"
- "we can't attract top players" (because of the above or because we aren't in Europe etc)
- "our squad is so good it's difficult to add players to improve" (one of my favourites from that summer 2018 window)
- "we were spending all our finances over x years building our new stadium"
- "Covid happened" (yes, because it only happened to us and not ALL clubs...)
- "there's no value in spending on players for the now, we have to invest in payers who will get better together in future because we've got so many great youth players and it would be a shame to waste them etc"

We use the stadium rebuild and Liverpool's history for why we went in different directions after many years of constantly finishing ahead of them. Then when the same thing happens with Arsenal we scrabble around for other reasons, when the reasons are staring us in the face: our owners who are unambitious or lack real football nous (i'd say both).
No matter what advantages we have we never seem to make them count and instead wheel out the excuses to deflect from looking at our owners.

Tbh, we have become a club of excuses.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I try to look back over twenty years plus of decisions and directions of travel under our ownership; there have been multiple times they ahve shown their inability (incompetence) in pushing the club forward, i mean REALLY forward. Whenever people compare with other clubs, rather than look inward at our constant missteps/inability to really act like an ambitious big club there's always an excuse of:

- "the club were catching up on nearly going bankrupt"
- "the club don't have the advantage of x years of constant CL football and all the money that brings"
- "we can't attract top players" (because of the above or because we aren't in Europe etc)
- "our squad is so good it's difficult to add players to improve" (one of my favourites from that summer 2018 window)
- "we were spending all our finances over x years building our new stadium"
- "Covid happened" (yes, because it only happened to us and not ALL clubs...)
- "there's no value in spending on players for the now, we have to invest in payers who will get better together in future because we've got so many great youth players and it would be a shame to waste them etc"

We use the stadium rebuild and Liverpool's history for why we went in different directions after many years of constantly finishing ahead of them. Then when the same thing happens with Arsenal we scrabble around for other reasons, when the reasons are staring us in the face: our owners who are unambitious or lack real football nous (i'd say both).
No matter what advantages we have we never seem to make them count and instead wheel out the excuses to deflect from looking at our owners.

Tbh, we have become a club of excuses.

Covid affected us more than most clubs, because of the timing of it
That’s a fact by the way, not an opinion
Most things listed here are opinions and speculation

 

[Lilbaz]

I try to look back over twenty years plus of decisions and directions of travel under our ownership; there have been multiple times they ahve shown their inability (incompetence) in pushing the club forward, i mean REALLY forward. Whenever people compare with other clubs, rather than look inward at our constant missteps/inability to really act like an ambitious big club there's always an excuse of:

- "the club were catching up on nearly going bankrupt"
- "the club don't have the advantage of x years of constant CL football and all the money that brings"
- "we can't attract top players" (because of the above or because we aren't in Europe etc)
- "our squad is so good it's difficult to add players to improve" (one of my favourites from that summer 2018 window)
- "we were spending all our finances over x years building our new stadium"
- "Covid happened" (yes, because it only happened to us and not ALL clubs...)
- "there's no value in spending on players for the now, we have to invest in payers who will get better together in future because we've got so many great youth players and it would be a shame to waste them etc"

We use the stadium rebuild and Liverpool's history for why we went in different directions after many years of constantly finishing ahead of them. Then when the same thing happens with Arsenal we scrabble around for other reasons, when the reasons are staring us in the face: our owners who are unambitious or lack real football nous (i'd say both).
No matter what advantages we have we never seem to make them count and instead wheel out the excuses to deflect from looking at our owners.

Tbh, we have become a club of excuses.

Liverpool were never anywhere near bankruptcy.

Their owners missed a payment of a loan they made using liverpool as collateral.
Liverpool as a business had money and were financially secure.

 

[billyiddo]

I try to look back over twenty years plus of decisions and directions of travel under our ownership; there have been multiple times they ahve shown their inability (incompetence) in pushing the club forward, i mean REALLY forward. Whenever people compare with other clubs, rather than look inward at our constant missteps/inability to really act like an ambitious big club there's always an excuse of:

- "the club were catching up on nearly going bankrupt"
- "the club don't have the advantage of x years of constant CL football and all the money that brings"
- "we can't attract top players" (because of the above or because we aren't in Europe etc)
- "our squad is so good it's difficult to add players to improve" (one of my favourites from that summer 2018 window)
- "we were spending all our finances over x years building our new stadium"
- "Covid happened" (yes, because it only happened to us and not ALL clubs...)
- "there's no value in spending on players for the now, we have to invest in payers who will get better together in future because we've got so many great youth players and it would be a shame to waste them etc"

We use the stadium rebuild and Liverpool's history for why we went in different directions after many years of constantly finishing ahead of them. Then when the same thing happens with Arsenal we scrabble around for other reasons, when the reasons are staring us in the face: our owners who are unambitious or lack real football nous (i'd say both).
No matter what advantages we have we never seem to make them count and instead wheel out the excuses to deflect from looking at our owners.

Tbh, we have become a club of excuses.

One man's excuse is another man's reason...

That post covers 20 odd years and covers discussion points that deserve more nuance and depth in discussion than you are giving credit to - just listing them out with some glib response (if any) isn't the gotcha you think it is.

The talking point this morning was Klopp/Poch and why we went different ways - you don't have an argument or are unable to argue against the stadium being (imv) a very valid reason as to why, so you pivot to another argument irrelevant to it and then when pulled on it you list out a wide range of topics covering twenty years - this just shows you aren't interested in an actual debate about the topic or topics or consider the merit of any opposing view.

 

[billyiddo]

Maybe some kind of big introspective covering the last twenty years can be penciled in for the quiet post-season weeks before preseason and the transfer window opening, when we can all get back to moaning about &/or excusing the lack of transfers

 

[harr1984]

One man's excuse is another man's reason...

That post covers 20 odd years and covers discussion points that deserve more nuance and depth in discussion than you are giving credit to - just listing them out with some glib response (if any) isn't the gotcha you think it is.

The talking point this morning was Klopp/Poch and why we went different ways - you don't have an argument or are unable to argue against the stadium being (imv) a very valid reason as to why, so you pivot to another argument irrelevant to it and then when pulled on it you list out a wide range of topics covering twenty years - this just shows you aren't interested in an actual debate about the topic or topics or consider the merit of any opposing view.

Indeed the stadium is a valid reason for certain things for sure. Like you said yesterday it seems we have got most things in order behind the scenes, question is how many years do we give it from now? @glorygloryeze is right, there has been excuse after excuse for why we haven't achieved, we were told once we had the new stadium things would be different. It's hardly been next level in any sense so far, so how much longer is reasonable to give for them to demonstrate the owners are serious in taking us to the next level and seriously competing for honours?

 

[glorygloryeze]

One man's excuse is another man's reason...

That post covers 20 odd years and covers discussion points that deserve more nuance and depth in discussion than you are giving credit to - just listing them out with some glib response (if any) isn't the gotcha you think it is.

The talking point this morning was Klopp/Poch and why we went different ways - you don't have an argument or are unable to argue against the stadium being (imv) a very valid reason as to why, so you pivot to another argument irrelevant to it and then when pulled on it you list out a wide range of topics covering twenty years - this just shows you aren't interested in an actual debate about the topic or topics or consider the merit of any opposing view.

My point as always is that the excuses wear thin after 20 years plus. Yes, we can all be nuanced on the different events that have been said to have 'held us back' when in reality there has been one constant over that time.
I certainly am tired of the debate about the excuses people keep listing for ENIC which do wear thin now, e.g. what's the excuse now for Arsenal to having overtaken us in such drastic fashion recently? It certainly cannot realistically be any of the ones i listed...