Davies shouldn’t big him up too much, there’s a vacancy in the spacegoat chair that he might end up in himself!What would Davies know!.... Football London need to stop interviewing these nobodies and interview Nayimfromthehalfwayline instead!
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Moussa Sissoko
- Thread starter Jordinho
- Start date
parklane1
Teddy Sheringham
It would not be the first time he has been put there.
thfcsteff
Sonny Walters
I would have to look back and see if I ever vaulted him as a DM. I have to say I find it hard to believe. I might well have said he could pair up in midfield alongside a Dier, but I would never want him to be the sitting player by choice. Can he do a job there when, say, Wanyama/Dembele/Winks are out? Yes. But I think he works best as a central midfielder with license to move and the responsibility to cover. I've held that line pretty firmly, so again, in the knowledge that I am happy to concede when wrong, I have to say there must've been a misunderstanding or I did not state my case clearly enough in that specific moment.
Regarding Wolves and Palace...different games so obviously not the same role, especially given who was playing around him/what the balance was. He was certainly swapping off holding/pushing with Winks, and furthermore, he had to switch roles in the 7th minute to drop in beside Winks and replace the Moose, where the pair eased their way through an understanding of balancing each other. It was great to see them able to do that. The genius of Poch against Chelsea was utilizing Dele's versatility and actually only putting dedicated holding responsibilities on Dier. I doubt Dier got into their half more than 6 times all match. As for Sissoko's instinct against Chelski, he simply played a very good game. You make it sound like he is a nutter who needs constant monitoring. In fact, he has filled in all over for us in the last couple of seasons. I simply think he enjoyed the formation and furthermore, his relationship with the vastly-improving Aurier allowed him to push on. You cannot deny he was a threat on Saturday, adding to the already superb threat our dynamic quarters brought.
I would've sold Dembele in the summer. Poch would've too. Ditto Wanyama. I would want either Winks or a player of the manager's choice brought in. I would absolutely keep Sissoko for his versatility and squad value.
In closing (I think we've exhausted this chat?) Dembele in his prime? Superb talent. I wish Poch had got him when he was 22-23 because he'd have been a world class footballer. As it is he will always be supremely gifted yet frustratingly unfulfilled. His ability to power through poor decision-making at critical moments is diminishing, and he has been getting caught on the ball for, far too often in the last season or so. I say all this without comparison to Sissoko, of course they are different players! As it lies, I believe long-term our CMs should be Dier and Winks, Dier IS a sitting player, shield who does just that, and Winks will mature into one of the best Modric-esque players in Europe.
Good debate.
Regarding Wolves and Palace...different games so obviously not the same role, especially given who was playing around him/what the balance was. He was certainly swapping off holding/pushing with Winks, and furthermore, he had to switch roles in the 7th minute to drop in beside Winks and replace the Moose, where the pair eased their way through an understanding of balancing each other. It was great to see them able to do that. The genius of Poch against Chelsea was utilizing Dele's versatility and actually only putting dedicated holding responsibilities on Dier. I doubt Dier got into their half more than 6 times all match. As for Sissoko's instinct against Chelski, he simply played a very good game. You make it sound like he is a nutter who needs constant monitoring. In fact, he has filled in all over for us in the last couple of seasons. I simply think he enjoyed the formation and furthermore, his relationship with the vastly-improving Aurier allowed him to push on. You cannot deny he was a threat on Saturday, adding to the already superb threat our dynamic quarters brought.
I would've sold Dembele in the summer. Poch would've too. Ditto Wanyama. I would want either Winks or a player of the manager's choice brought in. I would absolutely keep Sissoko for his versatility and squad value.
In closing (I think we've exhausted this chat?) Dembele in his prime? Superb talent. I wish Poch had got him when he was 22-23 because he'd have been a world class footballer. As it is he will always be supremely gifted yet frustratingly unfulfilled. His ability to power through poor decision-making at critical moments is diminishing, and he has been getting caught on the ball for, far too often in the last season or so. I say all this without comparison to Sissoko, of course they are different players! As it lies, I believe long-term our CMs should be Dier and Winks, Dier IS a sitting player, shield who does just that, and Winks will mature into one of the best Modric-esque players in Europe.
Good debate.
I didnt see it as a diamond really. I saw Dier and Sissoko sitting in and giving security to the rest to play. As you say, we do play a fluid formation, and so at times of course either venture forward - but it was absolutely notable Sissoko was checking his instinct to run forward and playing a much more positionally disciplined role.
If you think he played in any way similar to Wolves or Palace then I suggest we were simply watching different games.
Frustratingly I cannot find heatmaps for the games, I am certain they would look very different to illustrate what Im saying.
Opinions and assholes and everyone has one, and all that
I dont look too much into formations, mainly for a few reasons. 1) as you said yourself ours are always very fluid, 2) Poch is in the habit of changing them frequently in-game, and 3) they tend to inform your thinking too much on players (IE, he was this position so must be this and this...).
Given all that fluidity we could argue all day just about what shape we were in.
I prefer to think in roles, and IMO both Sissoko and Dier were defensive, allowing the rest to go do their stuff. Of course there is room in that for players to venture forward (or back!) but in essence, they were doing defensive work in midfield.
And as I said, I think it was a noticeable change in Sissokos positioning and actions. He was restraining himself a lot, and playing a very disciplined and focused game (something even his biggest fans must admit isnt his strong suit)
In a box to box capacity I dont think he "allows" anything, I think he is a compromise, and the team has to compensate for his weaknesses.
In this capacity Id sell him with Dembele and Wanyama and not think twice about it.
IF he can nail down a role like Chelsea? Then I can see him as having value. In that role I thought he was very good - and based on the last year or so definitely better than Wanyama has been. Though he doesnt and never will compare to Dembele, entirely different jobs.
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thfcsteff
Sonny Walters
This is absolutely what I saw.
SissokoWasGood (BoL)
John Lacy
I think any tactical summary of the game that I have seen (some good ones out there like The Coaches Voice and also various ones I've seen from the Twittersphere) all acknowledge we were playing a 4-4-2 diamond or a 4-3-1-2, with a midfield of Dier in the middle, Sissoko and Eriksen either side and Dele at the tip, man marking Jorginho. But, considering we ended up getting into a deeper mid block for most of the second half in particular, I can see why it looked like Sissoko was operating as more of a DM - certainly more than Eriksen considering he was more likely to use his physicality to make tackles on the defensive end. Overall it's much of a muchness, because the whole team started to contribute to the deeper defensive effort, but yes I don't think Sissoko was a pure DM.
I think Nayim, why people seem to be assuming that you don't want to be 'proven wrong' is because it seems like any comment you make on Sissoko, even positive, is damming with faint praise or cloaked in a lot of qualifiers so that what you are saying now can remain consistent with what you said before. This idea of 'if he is given a very specific role, asked not to do or think too much then he can have some value' just looks like a way of talking him down as a player. That the only way we can get anything out of him is if we totally compensate for all of the weaknesses he brings, rather than just appreciating him as a member of the squad with his own attributes and performing well. Again, it is the perception and how it is framed. His different attributes could be seen as advantageous, and providing balance in the squad, but this way they are seen as the stick to beat him with. It's the equivalent of lacing any comment on Eriksen with 'if he had more pace and strength' or Dier with 'if he was better at dribbling out of tight spaces'. Of course those attributes would be advantageous, and of course those players are adding a tonne of value to us anyway, but they along with almost everyone else in the squad are appreciated for what they are, not what they are not.
I just find it interesting - I argued for a lot of last season that Sissoko was excellent defensively (because he wasn't adding much on offence and I didn't believe he'd be in the side if he was adding absolutely nothing, or being actually detrimental in an elite sport with such fine margins) and I saw him now as then as someone who is always aware of danger, always fantastic at covering his nearest team-mates, near enough always one of the players who is bombing back if the opposition has managed to breach our lines, and a player that very rarely loses his duel - he's very strong in 1v1 situations. And someone that has the physical and mental attributes to play the pressing game (not just the physical ability to run and press, but the tactical awareness and concentration to know when to do it). But I was told I'd gone mad for trying to present arguments to support this, even though now it seems to be his ideal spot (how otherwise can someone be an ideal DM if they are no good defensively? If they are told to stay where they are and keep it very simple I suppose...). I actually think he is adding more on offence now too, so I can see Steff's point that you wouldn't want to pidgeon hole him as a DM. The runs he makes from deep are dangerous and pull the opposition out of place, and as long as he isn't in possession when bearing down on the opposition and required to think too much, he can deliver some decent final passes. One of the things I've noticed that if he is leading a break out, he'll dish it quickly to an attacker and then make a run, providing an option and delivering a first time ball, rather than needing to be the playmaker in the attack himself, which suits him.
But if we say he has no value offensively, and that when not played as a DM he 'goes missing' and 'leaves the midfield exposed' (despite his job as the box to box player to offer options in attack too, and against Palace the players didn't seem to think he had gone walkabout too much considering they were chanting his name in the changing room after the game, not Wanyama's) then you can still maintain the viewpoint that you had before, which was that he lacked the basic skills required for PL football. So if we say we play him only as a DM, not asked to think or move much, and keep it simple so as to not show off his Championship / League 1 standard technical skills, then you can still look consistent, and not like you are wrong. That's why it looks like you don't want to admit it.
I don't think there needs to be right and wrong. But I think it's hard not to do that when someone has gone so hard on one direction which was never likely to be the reality - which was that last season talking him down as someone not capable of performing in his profession. The reality was that he was adding some value then and is adding more now and that he had a very hard start which turned a lot of people against him. Given his prior accomplishments and the fact that one of our best ever Managers chose to keep him around, there was always likely to be a player in there, as he is now proving beyond hopefully any doubt.
SissokoWasGood (BoL)
John Lacy
I would also say that this idea that to make a DM you just need to tell the player to be focused and disciplined even if it isn't their natural inclination...I don't agree. It's no more an easy role than any other on the pitch, and the best holders of all time are the best because they know exactly when to close space and when to close down a player, how to play the angles, how to keep shape etc. It's probably one of the most mentally demanding on the pitch and why Dier is so good at it. But you can't just put anyone in there and tell them to stick as if it will make the role easier. Some - most - players just won't have the tactical awareness to play it.
FWIW, I think some of Sissoko's biggest and most under appreciated strengths are his mental ones. It would be very easy for him to be a purely physical player that gets by on those attributes and doesn't offer much else. But I think he is incredibly team orientated and has a great idea of the bigger picture. There's a reason he's a France international and still with us and playing, where as players like Capoue and Stambouli were bombed out at the first opportunity.
FWIW, I think some of Sissoko's biggest and most under appreciated strengths are his mental ones. It would be very easy for him to be a purely physical player that gets by on those attributes and doesn't offer much else. But I think he is incredibly team orientated and has a great idea of the bigger picture. There's a reason he's a France international and still with us and playing, where as players like Capoue and Stambouli were bombed out at the first opportunity.
thfcsteff
Sonny Walters
Excellent post and fine paragraph above.
I also couldn't agree more with your assertion of the holding midfielder role in terms of what it demands. 'Tis why there's so few good ones. In Dier we have a superb one who is generally not recognized nearly enough IMO. The fact that people were saying Sissoko "lacked a footballing brain" means that he would actually be the worst possible choice (were that true)...
The truth is he has proven to be a good all-round squad player who has finally found a seam of confidence imbued by being played in positions which suit him and by the faith of a manager who believes in him. Your Stamboulli and Capoue points underscore that, as does the sale of Bentaleb who I personally thought would captain this club one day.
SteveAWOL
Steve Sedgley
SissokoWasGood (BoL)
John Lacy
It’s something I don’t understand - the reframing of the DM role as one that can be kept simple, that anyone can play even if they lack the defensive awareness (which has to be the argument considering I was arguing last year that Sissoko had excellent defensive awareness). As if taking the players’ own requirement to think and placing it all on the system or the Manager is in any way a realistic proposition in any elite side, let alone the holding role in our system.
I think it requires a heck of a lot to be a Poch player. You need tactical versatility, you need an elite mentality, you need the comfort in yourself to pelt anyone else in the squad that isn’t living up to standards, you need to be incredibly fit, and you need to have the tactical awareness to play a system that will make us greater than the sum of our parts. You need to think of the collective before yourself. This mix of attributes is why Winks gets a first team shake and not Onomah. Why I think KWP has struggled to break through (although he is getting there) and why Sissoko has survived and players like Capoue and Stambouli were bombed out. Also why, as we all know, he loved Ryan Mason.
Incidentally I thinks Ben Davies suffers from the ‘not appreciated for what he is’ problem too. Not to the same extent as Sissoko, but he just doesn’t get the praise he deserves for being genuinely excellent. Signed as a back up, not flashy on the pitch, not a big name, and is really an afterthought in most fans minds, as the collective waits for Rose to regain form. But he ticks all of the boxes above, and if we look specifically at his position, he has excellent fitness, excellent passing (into offensive players and to play out of danger when pressed), excellent movement (varying his runs into central areas as well as wide) and he seems to be excellent defensively, rarely beaten and rarely out of position despite one of the most demanding roles. He’s played in some of our biggest wins and best performances but because he lacks 10/10 pace (although he isn’t slow) he is viewed as less than he is. I think Ben Davies is awesome, a great fit for us, and is under appreciated, and the collective don’t give him enough credit.
Not trying to start a big debate on Davies, but I find this idea of players being appreciated for what they are rather than what they aren’t quite interesting. I’d say he’s second to Sissoko in the squad at not getting the credit he deserves, principally because there are a fair few attributes required to play a Poch system that get glossed over as they aren’t obvious. But if you are excellent at them, you can still be a key player.
inkpenspur
Allan Nielsen
The impact of Pochettino ‘s coaching ability is most clearly seen in the massive improvement in Sissoko as a player. Although I do not think he is (or ever will be) a goal threat, is more than a midfield destroyer. He links the front four well, and is the closest thing we have to Dembele 2016/17. To think I would have been happy to have sold Sissoko last summer and relied on Wanyama and Dembele! How wrong was I? You’d sell both of those two now before you got rid of Sissoko
greatwhitenorf
Edgar Davids
If Sissoko lived down to the lowly views held by his naysayers, there's no way he would have been part of the Spurs team this long. There's no way. Poch wouldn't have the slightest tolerance for a slacker or a malingerer.
Clearly, what he must be showing away from the public eye, is to arrive every day ready, willing and capable of working his bag off at training, being a positive presence with team mates and a great role model for younger players.
If he can get better by working hard every day at training and being noticed by the manager and team mates, then surely they can too.
When you see the success he's now enjoying, and the warm embrace that emanates from his team mates, it's clear he's found a way to make a role for himself, one the staff clearly admires and encourages. Now, there's a tangible dividend being delivered and it's being commented on by the mainstream media. He's become unstoppable.
Clearly, what he must be showing away from the public eye, is to arrive every day ready, willing and capable of working his bag off at training, being a positive presence with team mates and a great role model for younger players.
If he can get better by working hard every day at training and being noticed by the manager and team mates, then surely they can too.
When you see the success he's now enjoying, and the warm embrace that emanates from his team mates, it's clear he's found a way to make a role for himself, one the staff clearly admires and encourages. Now, there's a tangible dividend being delivered and it's being commented on by the mainstream media. He's become unstoppable.
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
Similar to Steff then. As I said to him, you can argue semantics on positions all day long, and probably never agree. Which is why for me its about roles.
Would you say Sissoko was playing as he was against Palace and Wolves, or would you agree he was in a much more defensive role?
thfcsteff
Sonny Walters
If we look specifically at roles, I believe his role on Saturday was to win possession and transition quickly using strength, speed and athleticism. I don't think anybody believes Poch is looking for him to create like Alli and Eriksen, but I think it is very fair to say that he was given license to push on when the situation required and see what he could do. Not Frank Lampard but not Makalele either! Anyway, let's hope we can continue this debate after a similarly positive result on Sunday!!!!
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
It was a bit of fun, something that made me laugh - and quite possibly mis interpreted, I wouldnt worry about it too much!
We simply disagree on how best to use him. My thinking is that I actually dont want him going forward, frankly I think he is useless in that capacity - but given he is pretty good defensively Id like him focused there. That way our better attacking players have a platform to play from.
I actually do deny he was a threat on Saturday. He nearly got an assist for Kane, I suppose that counts, but I simply dont find value in him going forward. Until he starts contributing more in attack, my view wont change. Running up the field isnt the same as attacking to me. To say I thought he was defensive is not to say he wasnt crossing the half way line or anything like that, it is to say his focus was more on defending. Which I think holds true, and contrasts against those prior performances. As I said - there were a few times he was obviously checking his run consciously, I really believe there was instruction on him to sit in more and defend more. And I think he did it very well.
If we sell Dembele and Wanyama (not against it at all) we would have to keep Sissoko because we simply dont have the bodies. That being the case my choice be for a Winks/Dier partnership. And even Alli used deeper, with Sissoko as a squad unit. He plays, he is improving, but even so I dont think he is good enough. EXCEPT for as that more defensive player - where I thought he excelled. I can see real use of him in that capacity.
Your closing? I cant disagree at all. I think ultimately theres a hang up between my calling Sissoko defensive and your boxing that into being a holding player, remember - roles not positions.
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
I dont deny he did break, but as Ive said a few times now - it was absolutely notable he checked his instinct to break forward a number of times, which IMHO infers instruction to do so.
And, as Ive said, I think the way he performed was notably different to how he played against Palace and Wolves.
Yes, he did get forward. Yes, he did roam a bit. AND yes he did stay deeper and protect the defence a hell of a lot more than usual - seemingly tactically.
thfcsteff
Sonny Walters
I think a lot of this comes from the fact you are genuinely alarmed that Sissoko can a) listen to the manager and b) execute instruction, when I feel he has done it plenty of times but has simply lacked the confidence to shine/be effective. He has certainly learnt a hell of a lot under Poch, and I personally believe his workmate alone has doubled in the last 8 months.
I get it.
I was personally surprised and delighted at how well Aurier did, and how much better he has been the last few games he has played. My mate would always tell me he thought there was a player there whereas I thought only of his liabilities. It happens to the worst of us ;-)
But oh how glorious when they show us all!!!
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
Amusing that you talk about how I frame my argument, then write a full thesis miss representing it.
And, fundamentally, I disagree with your "never the reality" angle. That is the primary disagreement we have. Because he was absolutely terrible. For a long time your defence of him was utterly baseless. Particularly characterised by the whole "I argued for a lot of last season that Sissoko was excellent defensively (because he wasn't adding much on offence and I didn't believe he'd be in the side if he was adding absolutely nothing, or being actually detrimental in an elite sport with such fine margins)". Read it. You didnt have a tangible view yourself, you didnt have anything to say other than "If he is playing he must offer something". Palming it off to the management, the last refuge of an argument with no weight.
He was TERRIBLE. Fundamentally TERRIBLE. Couldnt trap a bag of cement, first touch a 20yd pass, cant find a team mate, play the ball off the pitch, tackle himself TERRIBLE. That he has improved now, doesnt mean he wasnt that bad then. He was.
People enjoy painting me as having backed myself into a corner and just blindly playing it through. I havent. At any stage Ive given credit where due, re evaluated what I think he is capable of and given fair comment. You? When he was indefensible you decided to defend him. I believe you said at the time soley because you didnt like how he was criticised. And youve done nothing but layer it on top of that ever since. An inch of progress taken as a mile.
Whenever I have offered due credit, Ive been told its not enough, Im being unfair still, my prejudice is informing it. When Im being fair, and its your prejudice that is unchecked - but Im the unreasonable one?
I said ages ago he was useful defensively. Not great, but that was his strengths. And if we were to use him in that capacity it would be the best use of him. Where is the issue in any of that?
He is still technically inferior, IMHO, to pretty well everyone else in the squad. Im not being bitchy, I genuinely cannot think of a player with worse technical skills.
Tactically I maintain when he is given license to roam he causes issues, I dont think his movement and sense of when to be where is good at all, and I think he causes gaps all over the place.
Physically he is a specimine, that rare combination of pace, agility, stamina and power. I think this saves him a lot of the time.
Positionally - what makes sense with a player like that? Give them a smaller area to play in and straight forward instruction. Saturday was the nearest he played that way and as I said - I think it was the best Ive seen of him in our shirt. He held position wonderfully, was in the right place at the right time, and used his assets to their best effect. If we played him like that every week Id be absolutely delighted.
Where is the caveat, the qualifier, in explaining why I think what I think?
If he plays against Milan and is an absolute box to box beast, running the midfield and really contributing to the attack - you think I wont appreciate it?
Id be mighty surprised, thats for sure, but also ecstatic. And therin lies the rub. I have done no more than evaluate as I go, if anyone has an entrenched position it is you.
Ade's folks are ok really
Ramon Vega
I groaned every time Sissoko was on the team sheet.
I shook my head in disappointment whenever he mis-controlled a pass.
I expected nothing of him when he lined up a shot.
I rinsed him to friends of rival teams and bemoaned the amount we spent on him.
And I laughed at him when he would somehow inexplicably run the ball out of play when it was easier to keep it in.
...But I am being proved wrong. And am happy to say it.
Long may his rise in confidence and performances continue as the lad is doing a great job of late and is definitely changing my opinion of him.
Love the fact he's now having his name sung too. Must be a real boost.
Keep it up Moussa, there's a huge part for you to play in this season's journey.
P.S...He still looks like bambi on ice when he runs with the ball.
I shook my head in disappointment whenever he mis-controlled a pass.
I expected nothing of him when he lined up a shot.
I rinsed him to friends of rival teams and bemoaned the amount we spent on him.
And I laughed at him when he would somehow inexplicably run the ball out of play when it was easier to keep it in.
...But I am being proved wrong. And am happy to say it.
Long may his rise in confidence and performances continue as the lad is doing a great job of late and is definitely changing my opinion of him.
Love the fact he's now having his name sung too. Must be a real boost.
Keep it up Moussa, there's a huge part for you to play in this season's journey.
P.S...He still looks like bambi on ice when he runs with the ball.