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Victimpool FC - Klopp leaving, grown men crying

AuroRaman said:
fudging hell.

The question we should be asking isn’t a snarky ‘why is it always Liverpool supporters?’ But it absolutely should be ‘why are English fans still subjected to disproportionate treatment based on a decades old reputation?’
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Yeah. It completely backs up what @thfcsteff and I have been saying and that this could be us next season. This had nothing to do with the behaviour of Liverpool fans and everything to do with really bad policing.
 
DeanoAustin said:
Where you seeing that?
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glorygloryeze said:
Whoa....where's your source for that??
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It's from that tiny part of the brain that is desperate to believe absolutely anything that is anti Liverpool FC or Scouse, regardless of irrationality.

Don't expect any reputable sources, just accept the wisdom flowing through a randomer's fingertips on a keyboard as it suits their internal biases.
 
Grays_1890 said:
I did and its one POV, there must be 1000s of accounts all of which contradict the other. I will take the official account whilst others will say they don't believe it because thats what suits their beliefs, I'm ok with that
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Excellent. It seems to very consistently marry up with both the majority of Liverpool supporters and non-supporters accounts of what happened that evening. I will take the account of what people actually in the thick of it experienced and documented over an organisation that many lament for being corrupt and chaotic on here when it suits them. I’m ok with that.
 
AuroRaman said:
Excellent. It seems to very consistently marry up with both the majority of Liverpool supporters and non-supporters accounts of what happened that evening. I will take the account of what people actually in the thick of it experienced and documented over an organisation that many lament for being corrupt and chaotic on here when it suits them. I’m ok with that.
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Haha when has a football fan honestly ever stood up and said "yeh sorry it was all our fault", its hugely naive to take the account of any football fan, and I include our fans in that who have re imagined history when its been convenient. Also even if that fan was innocent and telling the truth, you think they account for 40,000 fans all asked to converge on a city ticketless?

Personally all Liverpool goading aside do I think the organisation was great? No but was it heightened and compromised more with fake tickets and fan behaviour.....absobloodylootly
 
Grays_1890 said:
Haha when has a football fan honestly ever stood up and said "yeh sorry it was all our fault", its hugely naive to take the account of any football fan, and I include our fans in that who have re imagined history when its been convenient. Also even if that fan was innocent and telling the truth, you think they account for 40,000 fans all asked to converge on a city ticketless?

Personally all Liverpool goading aside do I think the organisation was great? No but was it heightened and compromised more with fake tickets and fan behaviour.....absobloodylootly
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Hence why I mentioned non-supporters too. The major news outlets are now focusing their reporting on the failures of organisation. I'm happy to correct my original stance to marry up with that alongside the continual personal accounts.
 
Grays_1890 said:
Haha when has a football fan honestly ever stood up and said "yeh sorry it was all our fault", its hugely naive to take the account of any football fan, and I include our fans in that who have re imagined history when its been convenient. Also even if that fan was innocent and telling the truth, you think they account for 40,000 fans all asked to converge on a city ticketless?

Personally all Liverpool goading aside do I think the organisation was great? No but was it heightened and compromised more with fake tickets and fan behaviour.....absobloodylootly
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You're continuing to parrot numbers with no support, only repetition. The evidence is overwhelming.
 
AuroRaman said:
Hence why I mentioned non-supporters too. The major news outlets are now focusing their reporting on the failures of organisation. I'm happy to correct my original stance to marry up with that alongside the continual personal accounts.
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Most of the accounts that I was reading on the night were from journalist caught up in the crowd trying to get into the stadium. Most of those weren't Liverpool fans but they corroborate what Liverpool fans have been saying. By contrast UEFA, the French police, government and match officials keep changing their story and none of their accounts have matched what we know happened on the ground.
 
thfcsteff said:
You're continuing to parrot numbers with no support, only repetition. The evidence is overwhelming.
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Parroted nothing, I have said I dont think fans take accountability ever, including ours

Liverpools clubs officials and BT all in the day proudly announced how many people were in the city before the issue.

I have said the blame likely lies in the middle based on organisation and also those with fake tickets exasperating the issues, I think thats a fair place to conclude from
 
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Having read the Athletic article, it is clear that there was a total lack of proper organisation and control, and that French police responded to violence from the locals to Pool fans, with indifference. Frightening stuff. Extraordinary that UEFA, such a wealthy organisation, clearly didn't prod the stadium organisers into getting their act together. Looks like I may have been hasty in laying the blame on the fans.........
 
Grays_1890 said:
Parroted nothing, I have said I dont think fans take accountability ever, including ours

Liverpools clubs officials and BT all in the day proudly announced how many people were in the city before the issue.

I have said the blame likely lies in the middle based on organisation and also those with fake tickets exasperating the issues, I think thats a fair place to conclude from
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The evidence suggests otherwise.
 
lurker of old said:
Having read the Athletic article, it is clear that there was a total lack of proper organisation and control, and that French police responded to violence from the locals to Pool fans, with indifference. Frightening stuff. Extraordinary that UEFA, such a wealthy organisation, clearly didn't prod the stadium organisers into getting their act together. Looks like I may have been hasty in laying the blame on the fans.........
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Kudos mate.
 
greatwhitenorf said:
As I've stated earlier, the long-established reputation of Liverpool fans preceded them and they did little to diminish it at Stade de France. Just to compare how Real Madrid operated, they pre-assembled their legitimate ticket-holding fans onto a fleet of chartered buses and dropped them at a pre-arranged point so that only legitimate seat holders arrived at the ticket gates.

Liverpool? Left arrival at the stadium to their own fans to sort out. Potential for problems? Absolutely. But if a score of cheeky Merseysiders managed to sneak in, well, as they've done in the past, they'd all regale in the tales and laugh up their sleeves at their cunning and resourcefulness.

So, if they were given prejudicial treatment from the French police, it's hard to cast blame. This isn't a recent thing. It's many decades in the making.

From a Los Angeles Times article in 1985:

On May 29 in Brussels, while a horrified TV audience watched, 39 people, including 31 Italians, died in a riot during the European Champions Cup final between Liverpool and Juventus of Turin, Italy.

Liverpool fans were blamed for starting the riot, smashing a flimsy metal barrier separating them from the Italians and pushing them, as they retreated in panic, into a concrete wall that collapsed on them. Some of the screaming Italians were trampled to death. The British fans then ripped down metal fences to make weapons, and hurled rocks, cans and bottles at police.

British politicians were angered and horrified at the barbaric behavior. Queen Elizabeth said she was shocked. Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher said her blood boiled. The riot, she said, brought shame and disgrace to England. British standing in Europe had suffered a devastating blow. “Sickening,” headlined the Liverpool Daily Post.

All English teams except the national World Cup club were banned from European competitions as a result of the riot and Englishmen, who had endured the mounting violence of hooliganism for more than a decade, took a hard look at their favorite game. Stringent measures, such as the ones in force at Watford, were adopted to control it.

The sale of alcohol inside stadiums was banned, as were any objects that could be used as weapons. Fans of rival teams were separated by strict control of ticket sales. Fans who entered stadiums with alcohol in their possession were subject to being sent to jail or being fined as much as $1,200. Fans drinking on trains and buses en route to games also were subject to severe penalties.

...Try as they might, the British obviously do not have hooliganism under control.

On Aug. 17, a memorial service in Liverpool for the victims of the Brussels riots was disrupted by hooligans shouting obscenities while the mourners sang “Abide With Me.”

From a South African news report in 2007:

Liverpool supporters criticised in Uefa study (iol.co.za)

By Mark Ledsom

Berne, Switzerland - English Premier League side Liverpool's supporters have been branded the most troublesome in Europe, according to a report compiled from international police statistics.

European soccer's governing body Uefa said on Monday it would be handing the study to UK sports minister Richard Caborn during a meeting in Brussels on Tuesday.

"There have been over 25 incidents involving Liverpool supporters since 2003, some of them small, some more worrisome," Uefa spokesperson William Gaillard told Reuters.

And from today's Guardian:

Liverpool fans caused initial problems in Paris, says French sports minister

Liverpool fans without valid tickets were responsible for the initial problems at the Champions League final, France’s sports minister has said, as government officials were due to meet for an urgent postmortem of Saturday night’s crowd chaos.

“What we really have to bear in mind is that what happened, first of all, was this mass gathering of the British supporters of the Liverpool club, without tickets, or with counterfeit tickets,” Amélie Oudéa-Castéra told French radio.

The minister said “between 30,000 and 40,000” Liverpool fans without valid tickets turned up at the Stade de France in Saint-Denis outside Paris, which seats 80,000 spectators.

I could go on all day copying and pasting articles about Liverpool fans and their bad behaviour on this issue. I could also get some of my Liverpool-mad relations in Ulster to contribute a note or two about their European romps (smash and grab in Zurich yielding some prize loot).

But enough of that. I want to enjoy the day.
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If you want to discuss Heysel, let's take it offline. I have personal knowledge.

If you want to discuss yesterday rationally instead of ignoring the evidence, same thing.

If you want to discuss our behaviour/treatment at the hands of foreign police over the years, same thing.

If you want to discuss UEFAs role in major
matches and tournaments fudging up (I am going back to the late 70s), same thing.

If you want to discuss French policing at matches, happy to.

If you want to stick to your guns, we're done really aren't we?!
 
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