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Victimpool FC - Klopp leaving, grown men crying

greatwhitenorf said:
Confirmed cases now approaching 500 and at least 58 dead in Liverpool. Would be interesting to know how many had been at Anfield on March 11.

Not a great year for the centre of sporting piety in England. Now the Grand National at Aintree has been binned, taking the best part of £1 billion out of the local economy, what with ticket sales, hotel and hospitality bookings, and betting.

Can't be long now before we hear wails of woe and victimisation waft across the Mersey. Or even within it.

If only they'd learned to walk alone.
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well everyone in Liverpool is always there right la
 
scaramanga said:
Strictly speaking that post is accurate. I know there are all kinds of opinions as to where the blame lands, but they did actually do it.
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The reason that crowd control is a thing is that crowds don’t really have agency. It’s not an accurate post and blame isn’t even a matter of dispute any more; there has been a full independent enquiry and none of the public bodies implicated have repudiated its findings.
 
ShipOfGoldblum said:
The reason that crowd control is a thing is that crowds don’t really have agency. It’s not an accurate post and blame isn’t even a matter of dispute any more; there has been a full independent enquiry and none of the public bodies implicated have repudiated its findings.
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If a person is pushed off of a high building, both the pusher and the ground can be said to have killed that person.

Liverpool fans are definitely the ground here, up to you whether or not you believe they're the pusher too.
 
scaramanga said:
If a person is pushed off of a high building, both the pusher and the ground can be said to have killed that person.

Liverpool fans are definitely the ground here, up to you whether or not you believe they're the pusher too.
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It’s not. It’s a matter of empirical fact and universal consensus. Contrarianism on the matter is flat-earthist. At least @greatwhitenorf has the excuse that he only gets news when walrusk-tusk traders rock up at his igloo to smoke ritual herbs and share the latest EPL gossip. You live here, though.
 
ShipOfGoldblum said:
It’s not. It’s a matter of empirical fact and universal consensus. Contrarianism on the matter is flat-earthist. At least @greatwhitenorf has the excuse that he only gets news when walrusk-tusk traders rock up at his igloo to smoke ritual herbs and share the latest EPL gossip. You live here, though.
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I do live here, which means I get the additional understanding of the strength of opinion held by the working classes of the time. I get to see how they feel the world is them against the govt/police. They hung the police out to dry on that one because blaming football fans was a complete vote loser.

If Liverpool fans can't stop themselves turning up ticketless and drunk in large numbers to events now with the awful hindsight we all have, and we all know they did it for every match before that one, what makes you think this was the one match where they didn't?
 
Whenever anyone gets crushed to death in a crowd - and it happens a lot - there is always a civil or ecclesiastical authority to blame. No different here from anywhere else.
 
ShipOfGoldblum said:
It’s not. It’s a matter of empirical fact and universal consensus. Contrarianism on the matter is flat-earthist. At least @greatwhitenorf has the excuse that he only gets news when walrusk-tusk traders rock up at his igloo to smoke ritual herbs and share the latest EPL gossip. You live here, though.
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In my opinion there were many failures from many sides that day, and the real travesty is that those who died where the people who turned up early, had tickets and were normal decent people. The kind more often than not no one gives a fudge about.

But I have to take issue with your post, even if is just the pedant in me, imperical fact is not established in an independent review. I would even question the independent bit in this case.
Universal consensus means nothing, especially if that consensus is derived from an independent review.
 
My cousin is a lifelong Liverpool supporter. Used to regale us with tales of running wild during away games back when Liverpool were in their pomp, turning over pubs, freaking out shocked Swiss shopkeepers as they vandalized their shops, mob rushing outdoor markets and lifting free food. Mob rule was a way of life for them then and Hillsborough was a result of that break-and-take mentality.

Now, there's to be an investigation into that wonderful CL loss to Atletico Madrid. Apparently they're still killing themselves, just a little more slowly this time:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-potential-covid-19-link-with-liverpool-match
 
Bedfordspurs said:
can be many things to blame
What is quite odd now is there seems to be NO blame on the pool fans who effectively broke in
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Yep it’s the classic no regard for authority but blame it when things go wrong.

No one breaks in with no ticket, no one dies that day. That’s a fact.

Liverpool were proud in the day of how the ran round Europe causing havoc looting shops and bringing back stolen clothes etc and had a questionable reputation. Add that to the previous point about breaking in to the game then is there any wonder the authorities judgement was made harder and maybe clouded? I have sympathy for the police on this one hugely.

Also there is a huge HUGE level of disparity on the shame felt by Liverpool for Juventus antics and the shame they expect the authorities to feel on Hillsborough. The Heysel shame is conveniently brushed under the carpet
 
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ShipOfGoldblum said:
The reason that crowd control is a thing is that crowds don’t really have agency. It’s not an accurate post and blame isn’t even a matter of dispute any more; there has been a full independent enquiry and none of the public bodies implicated have repudiated its findings.
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So there were not many fans in the game without a valid ticket?

It’s like me going on a killing spree with a gun and the victims claiming it’s the police fault for not stopping me, I find using the policing of the game as an excuse just gives the public the excuse to say “nothing to do with me” I find that lack of accountability by Liverpool fans rather pathetic to be honest.

I know for a fact if I was at a game without a ticket that lead to the deaths of many I would feel a huge level of guilt
 
ShipOfGoldblum said:
Whenever anyone gets crushed to death in a crowd - and it happens a lot - there is always a civil or ecclesiastical authority to blame. No different here from anywhere else.
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In nearly all disasters there are a chain of events that leads to final outcome. Attempts to airbrush links out of that chain just to suit the Liverpool agenda is underhand in my opinion.

If Liverpool fans had turned up to the game in a more sober and orderly fashion the disaster would have been avoided so I can’t just lump all blame on South Yorkshire police.

For me you just can’t say that South Yorkshire police are guilty of all wrong doing and that the fans in their care are innocent of any wrong doing.
 
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