• Dear Guest, Please note that adult content is not permitted on this forum. We have had our Google ads disabled at times due to some posts that were found from some time ago. Please do not post adult content and if you see any already on the forum, please report the post so that we can deal with it. Adult content is allowed in the glory hole - you will have to request permission to access it. Thanks, scara

Grammar Schools

LutonSpurs

LutonSpurs

Eric Dear
Results day today for my oldest for his 11+.

I know there are varying opinions on the rights and wrongs of these and I always thought it would be better if they didn't exist UNTIL it came to my own kids.

It's interesting to see how values and principles re-align when it comes to your own.

Discuss?
 
I used to be really opposed to private schools. But then I realised that they were actually no different to house price selection process that exists everywhere (£10k a year fees for 5 years, or buying a £50k more expensive house in a better catchment area is essentially the same).

My preference is for extensive streaming within the same schools, but at least grammar schools are theoretically meritocratic (compared to private schools or house price selected comps).
 
good luck to your boy

mine a a good few years off that decision yet so who knows what state UK education will be in then, my feeling now is it will be a balance between the quality of the schooling and what will make the kids feel settled and happy
 
I've been both privately and state educated. The difference was very notable. When I have to make this decision and if I can afford to, I would like my child/children to be schooled privately, an added bonus would be an international school.

My other half doesn't agree and has the opinion that there is no difference, but she was schooled in North Wales, so....


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk
 
I believe every child should have a good education whatever their parents financial situation, but as education is a "political" issue it will always be f*****.
 
parklane1 said:
Nothing against Grammar schools, the more intelligent kids should always be given the extra help.
Click to expand...
is 11+ a good measure of intelligence. I work in the city and most parents in my team have tutors that are preparing for 11 plus some ofr a number of years. I grew up
around a council estate and although I had decent parents / upbringing some very intelligent kids were left to their own devices.

I also believe that letting middle class / upper class remove their kids from the state schools means there is less impetuous for them to be improved. These are the people who hold the power (more likely to vote, not put up with crap) and even with the best of will if they do not have their own in the system there is less pressure to improve.

for these reasons I do not like the idea of grammar schools.


---- I bought a house near a grammar school, I will be trying very hard ot get my son in it when he is old enough.
 
r-u-s-x said:
is 11+ a good measure of intelligence. I work in the city and most parents in my team have tutors that are preparing for 11 plus some ofr a number of years. I grew up
around a council estate and although I had decent parents / upbringing some very intelligent kids were left to their own devices.

I also believe that letting middle class / upper class remove their kids from the state schools means there is less impetuous for them to be improved. These are the people who hold the power (more likely to vote, not put up with crap) and even with the best of will if they do not have their own in the system there is less pressure to improve.

for these reasons I do not like the idea of grammar schools.


---- I bought a house near a grammar school, I will be trying very hard ot get my son in it when he is old enough.
Click to expand...

The biggest determinant of educational success is peer group, or more specifically the attitudes towards education of the parents of the peer group. That's essentially what you are paying/moving for, nothing to do with levels of intelligence or teaching quality.

Grammars at least give poor bright kids with supportive parents a shot, which private schools and postcode comps don't.
 
Gutter Boy said:
I used to be really opposed to private schools. But then I realised that they were actually no different to house price selection process that exists everywhere (£10k a year fees for 5 years, or buying a £50k more expensive house in a better catchment area is essentially the same).

My preference is for extensive streaming within the same schools, but at least grammar schools are theoretically meritocratic (compared to private schools or house price selected comps).
Click to expand...
Id much prefer a focus on improving struggling schools and giving everyone a good chance irrespective of where their parents can afford to live.
 
monkeybarry said:
Id much prefer a focus on improving struggling schools and giving everyone a good chance irrespective of where their parents can afford to live.
Click to expand...

It's not the schools per se that are the problem though. It's the attitudes of the parents towards education in those schools. You can't change that with funding or staffing. It's needs a societal change to bring aspiration back to the working classes.
 
Gutter Boy said:
The biggest determinant of educational success is peer group, or more specifically the attitudes towards education of the parents of the peer group. That's essentially what you are paying/moving for, nothing to do with levels of intelligence or teaching quality.

Grammars at least give poor bright kids with supportive parents a shot, which private schools and postcode comps don't.
Click to expand...

Perhaps can get on board if we said a significant percentage need to go to poor kids as a driver of social mobility. As it is if it is just entrenching middle class / rich kids then there is no need to improve the comps for the plebs. obviously you then open a can of worms on fairness, i.e. kid a gets better results than kid b but they get into the Grammar, but likewise results alone do not tell the full story, Kid b was tutored and had parental support. Kid a did it himself while looking after his baby brother while mother went to work.

so in conclusion - - - What monkeybarry said.
 
Gutter Boy said:
It's not the schools per se that are the problem though. It's the attitudes of the parents towards education in those schools. You can't change that with funding or staffing. It's needs a societal change to bring aspiration back to the working classes.
Click to expand...
And grammar schools certainly are not going to help that, only help a small proportion.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
Gutter Boy said:
It's not the schools per se that are the problem though. It's the attitudes of the parents towards education in those schools. You can't change that with funding or staffing. It's needs a societal change to bring aspiration back to the working classes.
Click to expand...
Not an expert by any means but you often see a head teacher go into a school and make a significant difference. I doubt very much they get parents with bad attitudes on board so surely funding and training decent teachers, samller class sizes can make a huge difference?
 
Part of the problem with grammar schools (in the past, as I understand it, just from what I have read/heard, not first hand knowledge) is that the 11+ exam effectively drew a line in the sand at the age of 11 and created an environment where those who did not pass felt they were in the 'failure' bucket. It did not take into account that children develop academically at different ages. 11 is quite early to be pigeon-holding kids in the way the grammar school system did (still does,albeit on a smaller scale?).

Of course the ideal alternative of the state school system being of a high enough standard across the board to allow all children the opportunities to reach their potential is very utopian but surely it would be better for funding to go into improving standards at state schools for everyone rather than re-creating a system that only benefits the few? The two-tier system of private vs state is not going to go away, but rather than create additional tiers to bridge the gap, do so by investing and improving from the bottom up.
And that does mean, amongst other things, making it easier for schools to remove bad or non-performing teachers, and to reward those who excel. I say that as someone totally supportive of trade unions and the of assistance/safeguards they can provide to their members. (And absolutely not intending to turn this thread into an argument of pros and cons of trade unions).

I don't blame anyone who does send their children to grammar schools (or private schools), but any extension of the grammar school system means the state school system risks being perceived as second best.
 
parklane1 said:
Depends which way you look at it, If you have a class of 20 kids and 7 pass a 11+ exam and the others fail i would suggest it is a measure of intelligence yes.
Click to expand...
If those 7 had been tutored every night have a good supportive family while the 13 just get school learning and beaten every night I would say it isn't a good measure.

It's a test, you can be taught to pass that test.
 
r-u-s-x01 said:
If those 7 had been tutored every night have a good supportive family while the 13 just get school learning and beaten every night I would say it isn't a good measure.

It's a test, you can be taught to pass that test.
Click to expand...

And maybe some of the 13 who failed could not be bothered to learn in the first place. So it is a good measure.
 
parklane1 said:
And maybe some of the 13 who failed could not be bothered to learn in the first place. So it is a good measure.
Click to expand...
Maybe but on average those families with more resource will be at an advantage as they can afford extra tuition.

Remember this will be on average, some individuals can overcome the disadvantage but they will be the outliers
 
Bullet said:
By the way, Grammar Schools only exist in a few random places

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grammar_schools_in_England

In some ways I am tempted to put my kid in a private school, but then again if I hand him everything in life with a silver spoon he is liable to end up a coke-snorting, entitled pain in the as.s
Click to expand...

difference between Grammar and private is that they have to pass an exam regardless of how well off they are. At private schools you get some rich talentless kids but grammar has generally very bright kids.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back