Employment law

[Danishfurniturelover]

I know I should seek proper advice.

I have a situation where someone who I am a manager of someone who has helped out and been doing a lot of over time for the company, on average 15 hours a week. They have a contract for 40 hours a week but do about 55 for 3 months.

Now I wanted to cut those hours down to 40 and employ someone else on 15 hours a week in mornings so I can better meet my CSL's Critical Service Levels but this person is refusing and saying it is against the law. I am looking on Government websites for advice because I doubt the owner will allow me to employ a solicitor.

Anyone have any advice over this? the guy is a nice guy and a good worker but I need someone in the morning to get things done quicker.

 

[Baleforce]

the person is refusing to do what they are contracted to?

 

[paxtonwolf]

As you say you may need clarification from a HR Department, but unless the guy has a written or verbal agreement where he has been guaranteed the 15 hours overtime each week I dont see how he can claim it is against the law. You are not cutting his contracted hours, so as far I can see you are not breaking any laws

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

the person is refusing to do what they are contracted to?

No I feel I am being strong armed actually, the person is doing there contracted hours 40 a week but because we have been so busy they have been doing 15 hours a week over time(average over the last 3 months) they are saying that those 15 hours are now what they are entitled to by law. I have only worked here 6 weeks or so.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

As you say you may need clarification from a HR Department, but unless the guy has a written or verbal agreement where he has been guaranteed the 15 hours overtime each week I dont see how he can claim it is against the law. You are not cutting his contracted hours, so as far I can see you are not breaking any laws

Yes that is what I was thinking.

I am actually a nice guy and I don't want to tinkle anyone off, he has helped out by doing the over time. But this is a haulage business. I need to get out stock as quick as I can in mornings on to improve efficiency. Though he is happy to work later in the day, if I had an extra person in the morning then I would be able to improve things like the guy who owns the firms wants(why he brought me in in the first place)

 

[Baleforce]

ah right, so they are getring paid hourly and don't want to lose the extra cash?

you'd have to check their contract and see what it says about overtime and hours, also who can sign off overtime sheets

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

ah right, so they are getring paid hourly and don't want to lose the extra cash?

you'd have to check their contract and see what it says about overtime and hours, also who can sign off overtime sheets

I am the one who signs off over time sheets. Their contracts such as it is are quite flimsy and I assume they are the generic ones that the previous manager downloaded from a website then changed the names to the company's name.

I understand they dont want to lose the extra cash but it is not part of their contract. If it were me I would think well a good thing has come to an end.

 

[monkeybarry]

First question - has he signed a working hours directive opt out? If not, get that signed before he works over 48 hours a week again - don't want to leave yourself open to any question of breaking the rules.

Do you think you will see a discernible difference in output but hiring an extra person whilst simultaneously upsetting an existing employee? If so, I would present it to him as a business decision that is " its 15 hours and is likely to rise, so we need an extra person " and " if you think it is illegal, please show me under which regulations you consider this to be so".

I would take the pure business angle first and hope he sees sense.

As far as legality, as people have said - his contract is his contract and he should be thankful he is in a growing company and got extra hours for 3 months.

You could also suggest to him that you need an extra 0.3 of a person, but any further over time you will look favourably on him as you appreciate that he has helped out

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Cheers for the advice Monkey this is my first management role, I am pretty good with people as a rule and I do not want to tinkle anyone off. I respect people who want to work, I am kind of a awkward position(oooahh matron). Spent so much of today reading page after page of employment law and I think I have forgotten all already.

Did not think it would be like this.

 

[monkeybarry]

Cheers for the advice Monkey this is my first management role, I am pretty good with people as a rule and I do not want to tinkle anyone off. I respect people who want to work, I am kind of a awkward position(oooahh matron). Spent so much of today reading page after page of employment law and I think I have forgotten all already.

Did not think it would be like this.

Gotta take the rough with the smooth.
The hours are increasing, its a nice headache.

Good luck mate.

 

[Papercut]

Overtime is just that - over the time of his contractual hours. I'd be surprised if you were obliged to offer him any overtime. Sometimes business will use existing staff rather than going down the recruitment process to save costs.

Sounds like the reason you want a new head is a business decision. You need someone to work the morning rota - if he cannot offer that then you need to recruit and he needs to understand that. Remember, he works for the business (not the other way around).

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

If his contract is for 40 hrs than that is all you are obliged to give him. I very much doubt there is any 'guaranteed' overtime hours written into it.

If he has become dependent on the extra hours to heat,feed and put a roof over the head of his family (its harsh) but that is his problem.

Can i ask about the hours. Are the extra hours he is doing at the end of the day and you need to trade those hours for an extra employee at the start of the day? (when you are busier) Is this chap already doing the morning hours as part of his normal day?

 

[Whiffler]

Just some thoughts

Give him something in writing now. Even if it's not full of detail he cannot later deny being aware.

Find if anyone at the firm has indicated/said/written to him that this would be long-term.

The sooner you stop the o/t, or at least cut back the better, as you've made a change before the expectation of continuous overtime can be established.

On the considerate employer front, ask him if he's taken on some financial commitment that's going to worry him. There might be ways your firm could ameliorate any potential problem.

To sweeten it generally, concede that there would be the occasional overtime, but be careful not to say things like "well the new bird might get preggers and you'll be OK"

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

If his contract is for 40 hrs than that is all you are obliged to give him. I very much doubt there is any 'guaranteed' overtime hours written into it.

If he has become dependent on the extra hours to heat,feed and put a roof over the head of his family (its harsh) but that is his problem.

Can i ask about the hours. Are the extra hours he is doing at the end of the day and you need to trade those hours for an extra employee at the start of the day? (when you are busier) Is this chap already doing the morning hours as part of his normal day?

That is exactly it. He does 6am to 2pm. Often staying behind till 5pm on a busy day.
I need to get orders out quicker to meet some targets and need someone extra in the mornings.

Appreciate the advice fellas. This is all new to me, also never knew that you have to give people a certain amount of time off from the end of one shift to the start of another. So much more involved and bloody boring then I thought it would be.

 

[Bullet]

So much more involved and bloody boring then I thought it would be.

To be honest I'm quite pleased that you're finding management to be far less interesting and far more difficult than you thought... reading websites about employment law and then trying not to offend staff or say the wrong thing or leave yourself open to criticism or attack... it's SUCH FUN isn't it?!!

Good luck mate.

I'm not sure about the issue you face to be honest... on the one hand I think you should get someone in and the other guy just has to deal with it... but having said that I had a staff member who tended to come in 8-4.30 rather than 9-5.30 like everyone else, and my HR team reckoned that as this had been going on for 9 months it constituted an agreed change in working hours, even though his contract didn't state those hours.

 

[Papercut]

To be honest I'm quite pleased that you're finding management to be far less interesting and far more difficult than you thought... reading websites about employment law and then trying not to offend staff or say the wrong thing or leave yourself open to criticism or attack... it's SUCH FUN isn't it?!!

Good luck mate.

I'm not sure about the issue you face to be honest... on the one hand I think you should get someone in and the other guy just has to deal with it... but having said that I had a staff member who tended to come in 8-4.30 rather than 9-5.30 like everyone else, and my HR team reckoned that as this had been going on for 9 months it constituted an agreed change in working hours, even though his contract didn't state those hours.

Sounds like a verbal agreement - as a result HR will cuss the managers but have to adhere to the terms.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

That is exactly it. He does 6am to 2pm. Often staying behind till 5pm on a busy day.
I need to get orders out quicker to meet some targets and need someone extra in the mornings.

Appreciate the advice fellas. This is all new to me, also never knew that you have to give people a certain amount of time off from the end of one shift to the start of another. So much more involved and bloody boring then I thought it would be.

Will things suffer when you lose his 3 hrs in the afternoon?

Communication is your friend here. Perhaps offer him a 5am start so at least he gains 5 extra hours a week and offer a part timer 10hrs. Trying to keep everyone happy is the aim and a lot of that is dependent on language skills and your character/personality.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Will things suffer when you lose his 3 hrs in the afternoon?

Communication is your friend here. Perhaps offer him a 5am start so at least he gains 5 extra hours a week and offer a part timer 10hrs. Trying to keep everyone happy is the aim and a lot of that is dependent on language skills and your character/personality.

Things would not suffer for the business if we lose the afternoon over time and get it put onto the morning it would work better and we would improve efficiency and then when we go to price new work when can show our lead times and generally speaking it would be a selling point if we are able to get orders out quicker.

Getting him at 5am would not work as the trunker does not come until 5.30am and the guy doing the forklift takes about 15-20 minutes to unload it before it can be sorted. I really just need an extra body to get through the work. Luckily we are in a part of the country where we can bodies in to do some work(outside Crawley)

I never realised how you have to spend so much time on every little thing.

 

[scaramanga]

I never realised how you have to spend so much time on every little thing.

Welcome to the world of management.

It's like herding cats except you have to pay the cats and there's piles of EU regulations stating that you can't herd cats.

Then they make up an illness, find an ambulance chaser to pay off a doctor* and sue you.

*Seriously, this really happens. Most people (like I used to) believe that doctors are above corruption but I know of one walk in centre in Birmingham where pretty much any doctor can be bought to sign you off sick for as long as you want or to pretend you have some kind of work related illness.

 

[Whiffler]

Well, how did that work out for you old jap ?