AVB versus Martinez

[mattls]

When choosing Harry's successor two summers ago AVB wasnt on my short list but Martinez was.. I think Spurs missed a trick not going for Martinez personally. Everton today looked mightly impressive and were so good in possession and were full of running for the full 90 mins, the way Martinez has his team set up is just right. When comparing Spurs and everton Martinez plays the same system to AVB but his side are some much more eye catching and has turned Everton with a small budget very quickly from a bunch of brusiers to a top side in a short space of time. AVB has been in charge of Spurs for over 50 games and his approach is more pragmactic and we seem to be way behind them. For me there's no reason why we cant play the same way? Perhaps this is the way AVB does want us to play and the players havent mastered the system?

The thing that really stood out for me was that even at 0-0 Martinez was going for the win and got his reward of a draw when he put Deulofeu on and he went onto score. Would AVB have done the same i very much doubt it and it kind of summed it up for me the difference between the two coaches. Pragmatic v creative..

I think the key point of the system and how it works for Everton better is Lukaku, neither Defoe or Soldado are that man. Do we perhaps need a different alternative upfront?

 

[diego_maradona]

I think it's far too quick to judge this, both are in remarkably different situations for a start. AVB managing a side where there is a higher degree of expectancy. He is also moulding a side from players who don't have premier league experience. Lukaku, Barry, McCarthy have all played in this league before and done well.

If we are looking at the two as managers in what they've achieved this far in their career I would say AVB is more of a psychological manager whereas Martinez comes across as a fantastic technical coach. AVB looks at how to get the best from his side from a strong mentality viewpoint, understanding the fragilities and strengths of his teams mindset.

You hit the tickle my balls with a feather when saying its pragmatism v creativity. I still think AVB wants us to play a creative fluid style of football but wants us to be pragmatic. He is more interested in winning and his mind analyses ways in which gives his sides a higher probability of winning.

Martinez comes across as more of a purist. I would love to combine the two. But I'd also want to give AVB a long time to really show us what his blueprint truly is.

 

[El Guepardo]

The difference is the result that is achieved. If Everton had conceded the shot from Giroud, which struck the frame of the goal, then it could have been argued that Martinez had acted too adventurously in bringing on an attacking player. Yet, as it happened, the game fell for Martinez and Everton took a well earned point. Small margins can decide perceived strength and weaknesses of individuals and teams.

I think Martinez is an excellent manager but I would like to see what has happened with the club towards the end of the season. Will the team continue to play at this level? Or will performances, and results, drop to find Everton at their usual standard of old?

I think Everton having barely recruited new players certainly helped the transitional period for Martinez. Everton signed Lukaku, Barry and Delofeu, I believe that those were the only signings? And so, have their reduced movement in the window may well have helped to create a settled environment upon which Martinez could express his footballing ways. AVB may yet achieve the same once our team has gelled.

I think patience is the key, let's see where both clubs are at in March. By then, our players will have gelled, plus Everton may have been found out. If Everton are too reliant on Lukaku, then once teams find a way to take him out of the game, Everton will become a lot less of a threat.

 

[milo]

I think that it is to early to tell how Martinez will do at Everton. They have made a GHod start but they have a more settled team than us and in signing Barry they went for an experienced and underrated Premier League player, whereas a lot of our signings were with one eye to the future.

I think that another reason to be cautious are that Martinez's teams have tended to be patchy at his previous clubs, it'll be interesting to see if a better quality squad means that he can get a team to play well for a whole season.

 

[El Guepardo]

Barry was an inspired signing by Martinez, the kind of signing that I always used to like to make in Football Manager. A player identified as being better than his current ranking in football, 'rescued' from reserve football and now repaying that saving act. Barry could yet qualify for a position within the World Cup Squad.

 

[Robspur12]

I think it's far too quick to judge this, both are in remarkably different situations for a start. AVB managing a side where there is a higher degree of expectancy. He is also moulding a side from players who don't have premier league experience. Lukaku, Barry, McCarthy have all played in this league before and done well.

If we are looking at the two as managers in what they've achieved this far in their career I would say AVB is more of a psychological manager whereas Martinez comes across as a fantastic technical coach. AVB looks at how to get the best from his side from a strong mentality viewpoint, understanding the fragilities and strengths of his teams mindset.
You hit the tickle my balls with a feather when saying its pragmatism v creativity. I still think AVB wants us to play a creative fluid style of football but wants us to be pragmatic. He is more interested in winning and his mind analyses ways in which gives his sides a higher probability of winning. Martinez comes across as more of a purist. I would love to combine the two. But I'd also want to give AVB a long time to really show us what his blueprint truly is.

Where is the evidence to support this ( genuine question)? As for the second part where is the evidence of that? For all the analysis that his mind does, our team does not create many goal scoring opportunities unlike Martinez's team today, I don't think it's enough to say that they signed PL players whereas we didn't especially as our players, for the money we paid, were supposed to be comparatively much better. Contrast our performance at the Emirates to Everton ( granted our game was earlier in the season).

 

[Robspur12]

I think that it is to early to tell how Martinez will do at Everton. They have made a GHod start but they have a more settled team than us and in signing Barry they went for an experienced and underrated Premier League player, whereas a lot of our signings were with one eye to the future.

I think that another reason to be cautious are that Martinez's teams have tended to be patchy at his previous clubs, it'll be interesting to see if a better quality squad means that he can get a team to play well for a whole season.

Surely you can't pay 30million and 26 million with "an eye to the future." We are not Chelsea for that money would you not expect players who are good to go?

 

[El Guepardo]

You can't expect players to be signed from different countries and to make an immediate impact. Players will take time to adapt to the country, to feel at home and to learn the pace and style of football in the Premiership. Some players can naturally adapt quicker than others but I think any player signed from another country, is a signing with which one must exercise patience.

So yes, the player is signed with a view on the future, but with the hope that they can hit the ground running as quickly as possible.

 

[Cochise]

Martinez has the advantage of two very mobile fullbacks that are very competent in attack, in fact what with Baines injured they have three of those. Lukaku Barry and Barkley are the difference in style though. Barry has more in his locker with regards to his passing ability than Sandro and Barkley offers a more physical #10 than we have. Lukaku is a beast though, even at 90 minutes he brushed off Arteta and ran at goal, it's nice to have a player that can do that. He took the game to the Arsenal defence and occupied them all evening, something which Soldado and Defoe cannot do. Also, Pienaar rarely stayed wide and found areas of space all over their left flank.

That said, I watched the last 20 minutes of the first half, and for all their possession, they still didn't get into the box that often. Kind of reminiscent of our system.

 

[DHSF]

Martinez was always my first choice. Maybe its because he comes across as an all round good guy and bloody loyal as he has shown. Liked how Wigan played football (although didnt watch too much of Wigan obviously)

People will say oh but he has players who have played in the PL before WELLL DU****INGDUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUH. Its part of a Managers remit to decide which players they go for to give them best chances of success. We went for unproven non PL players, Martinez went for PL players at half the cost (just an estimate)

Anyways I think he will be a success and will go on to bigger and better things without doubt. He may not win much with Everton but he will get them playing good football, punching up nearer to the top than middle of the table and will perhaps win a cup or two but depends on how extensive Evertons ambition is.

 

[Robspur12]

You can't expect players to be signed from different countries and to make an immediate impact. Players will take time to adapt to the country, to feel at home and to learn the pace and style of football in the Premiership. Some players can naturally adapt quicker than others but I think any player signed from another country, is a signing with which one must exercise patience.

So yes, the player is signed with a view on the future, but with the hope that they can hit the ground running as quickly as possible.

I don't disagree with you but our recruitment policy was strange in that we paid huge fees for 2 players who we didn't expect to make an instant impact? I honestly think we expected them to fit in sooner. Anyway don't want to take this O/T

 

[diego_maradona]

Where is the evidence to support this ( genuine question)? As for the second part where is the evidence of that? For all the analysis that his mind does, our team does not create many goal scoring opportunities unlike Martinez's team today, I don't think it's enough to say that they signed PL players whereas we didn't especially as our players, for the money we paid, were supposed to be comparatively much better. Contrast our performance at the Emirates to Everton ( granted our game was earlier in the season).

He has often spoke about psychology in football.

http://metro.co.uk/2013/02/25/andre-villas-boas-i-dont-judge-spurs-stars-on-useless-stats-3512801/

About the style? I remember reading a lot of AVB articles before he joined Chelsea, talking about his philosophies about the game, high tempo and transition. I think he has a bigger vision for the style of his team but to back this up? I can only dig out old quotes which would take me time to find.

 

[El Guepardo]

I think we hoped that Soldado would fit in quickly, and that's the reason that he was selected as our number 9. I do think that Soldado was a victim of our system and the lack of real chances that we created. I think that had he played yesterday, he would have scored. I think he's a better finisher than Defoe and was waiting on the chances that we created for Defoe yesterday, to score.

I expect that Soldado will start against Liverpool, with Defoe starting against Anzi on Thursday but, as you've said, I don't want this to go O/T so I will leave that as my end remark. If there is any other discussion required, feel free to PM me or find another appropriate thread.

 

[diego_maradona]

Martinez was always my first choice. Maybe its because he comes across as an all round good guy and bloody loyal as he has shown. Liked how Wigan played football (although didnt watch too much of Wigan obviously)

People will say oh but he has players who have played in the PL before WELLL DU****INGDUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUH. Its part of a Managers remit to decide which players they go for to give them best chances of success. We went for unproven non PL players, Martinez went for PL players at half the cost (just an estimate)

Anyways I think he will be a success and will go on to bigger and better things without doubt. He may not win much with Everton but he will get them playing good football, punching up nearer to the top than middle of the table and will perhaps win a cup or two but depends on how extensive Evertons ambition is.

Yea but I would think our longer term strategy could yield far greater returns. We are hedging our bets on these young stars to become superstars and hopefully at spurs. Yes the risk is greater but the results could be far greater in the long term. We need to stop looking at results in isolation or in clusters of 5 games even. Things often don't happen that quickly

 

[Nigeyman]

I think it's far too quick to judge this, both are in remarkably different situations for a start. AVB managing a side where there is a higher degree of expectancy. He is also moulding a side from players who don't have premier league experience. Lukaku, Barry, McCarthy have all played in this league before and done well.

If we are looking at the two as managers in what they've achieved this far in their career I would say AVB is more of a psychological manager whereas Martinez comes across as a fantastic technical coach. AVB looks at how to get the best from his side from a strong mentality viewpoint, understanding the fragilities and strengths of his teams mindset.

You hit the tickle my balls with a feather when saying its pragmatism v creativity. I still think AVB wants us to play a creative fluid style of football but wants us to be pragmatic. He is more interested in winning and his mind analyses ways in which gives his sides a higher probability of winning.

Martinez comes across as more of a purist. I would love to combine the two. But I'd also want to give AVB a long time to really show us what his blueprint truly is.

what a brilliant and engaging post.......

I have alot of respect for Martinez and it seems like sometimes a certain manager is a perfect fit for a certain club. My Man utd supporting friend is now gutted they didnt go for Martinez.....lol.

as others have said I would like to see how this season pans out before passing final judgement.

was massively impressed with Everton today......love Coleman think he's an amazing full back along with Baines and Ross Barkley can probably be as good as he wants to be....exciting times I guess if your a toffee....though I still think our stronger squad and the belief that some of our signings will kick on will ensure we finish above Everton.

I hope.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Re: AVB versus Martin

I personally think there both very good young managers at a similar stage in their careers. Martinez has managed longer but has had debatable success. His philosophy on football however is great IMO and he seems to be a hell of a positive character

AVB hasn't managed as long but again is a student of the game. He has faults but he is young and is learning too. He also is generally positive and players who have played for him at other combs excluding Chelsea speak very highly of him so that's a great thing IMO

Martinez sides always play good football where as AVBs side generally get better results but you can't compare them at different clubs

Martinez hasn't achieved anything at Everton yet and may or may not. Likewise AVB hasn't so let's see at the end of the season

Also Martinez was someone I would have loved at WHL but I was chuffed with AVB too so maybe I'm fickle

 

[Robspur12]

The one interesting thing about Martinez's team is that many of the key players are loan signings, so his club is not building for the future.

 

[the dza]

Seeing how Martinez teams play on their good days, I'd have to think that if he was at a club with our budget, he would construct a very slick team that we'd love to watch.

As for how successful that team would be, I have no idea. It's much harder getting to 1st from 4th than it is going from 10th to 5th. The bar for what would constitute success here is higher than anywhere Martinez has managed so far in his career. That's not the case for AVB.

 

[chancer]

He has often spoke about psychology in football.

http://metro.co.uk/2013/02/25/andre-villas-boas-i-dont-judge-spurs-stars-on-useless-stats-3512801/

About the style? I remember reading a lot of AVB articles before he joined Chelsea, talking about his philosophies about the game, high tempo and transition. I think he has a bigger vision for the style of his team but to back this up? I can only dig out old quotes which would take me time to find.

Awesome bit of AndreSpeak in that article:

‘Sometimes certain tasks might not achieve specific physical data that rewards premium efficiency in terms of a physical performance.'

:lol:

 

[El Guepardo]

The one interesting thing about Martinez's team is that many of the key players are loan signings, so his club is not building for the future.

That all depends upon how you decide to define building for the future. If Everton surprised most people and managed to succeed in finishing in a top 4 place, the club could then look to sign a higher class of player than if they were to finish mid table. Short term success can lead to long term success providing that the management is structured such as to capitalise on the short term success and make the decisions which will successfully take the organisation in to the future.