Are West Ham a sleeping giant?

[ballam]

Growing up in Balham I never see West Ham as a rival of ours however since moving out to Essex and mixing with West Ham supporters daily I see them as a rival now, but not on the same scale as Chelsea or Arsenal.

Anyway getting to my point I was having a conversation with a few other ST holders after the Palace game and we started to discuss West Ham's successes this season and how with the Olympic stadium round the corner they could be a force to be reckoned with in the future, challenging us for top 4/5. I'm sure I even remember Levy referring to them as a sleeping giant. What are your thoughts?

 

[scaramanga]

Not even close. Barely even a sleeping midget with severe developmental problems.

 

[Neymar]

i'm not sure i would go as far as to call them a sleeping giant. but, im convinced they could be at least as big as us with a bit of luck and good management (long term that is). i think there are a few clubs in the league like this though. Saudi Sportswashing Machine strike me as being one of these teams. and perhaps the likes of southampton and leeds could also get to "our level" with a good management structure. in the very long term (ie. 10-15 years), i think basically all premier league and top 50% championship clubs have the capacity to get to where we are at the moment.

 

[milo]

i'm not sure i would go as far as to call them a sleeping giant. but, im convinced they could be at least as big as us with a bit of luck and good management (long term that is). i think there are a few clubs in the league like this though. Saudi Sportswashing Machine strike me as being one of these teams. and perhaps the likes of southampton and leeds could also get to "our level" with a good management structure. in the very long term (ie. 10-15 years), i think basically all premier league and top 50% championship clubs have the capacity to get to where we are at the moment.

I do not think that achieving the same level of success necessarily means that you are as big as another club. We have typically done better than Liverpool over the last five years but they are still the bigger club because of what they have achieved in the past and the size of their fan base. It would take decades of success for West Ham, Saudi Sportswashing Machine or Leeds to become as big as us.

 

[scaramanga]

I do not think that achieving the same level of success necessarily means that you are as big as another club. We have typically done better than Liverpool over the last five years but they are still the bigger club because of what they have achieved in the past and the size of their fan base. It would take decades of success for West Ham, Saudi Sportswashing Machine or Leeds to become as big as us.

And a severe dip in our fortunes.

If we were relegated to a lower division for a generation or two and the Canning Town Bingo Club consistently finished in the top 6 for that time (almost impossible unlikely) then they might begin to match us.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Historically, they have a long way to go before they catch up to us, not counting 'intangibles' (World-Cup side, loyal support and all that). Presently, they're about to move into a sixty-thousand seater stadium gifted to them by the government while we're stil struggling to update the damn renders of our own monstrouserty on the club website - they have a manager in form, a team in form, a lot of class players in their side and the potential to explode revenue-wise due to the prime location they'll be moving into.

We'd be stupid not to consider them a real and present danger atm.

 

[scaramanga]

We'd be stupid not to consider them a real and present danger atm.

We have to consider it in a "covering all bases" way, like our military would have to consider an invasion from Liechtenstein.

I don't have any concerns about their new stadium - they can't even fill their current sh1tehole, let alone something much bigger with worse views. They're at least a couple of generations away from worrying us.

 

[Roy1983]

We have to consider it in a "covering all bases" way, like our military would have to consider an invasion from Liechtenstein.

I don't have any concerns about their new stadium - they can't even fill their current sh1tehole, let alone something much bigger with worse views. They're at least a couple of generations away from worrying us.

Invasion from Switzerland more like!!!!

They will finish 4 places and 9 points behind us. Let's see in May.

 

[Neymar]

I do not think that achieving the same level of success necessarily means that you are as big as another club. We have typically done better than Liverpool over the last five years but they are still the bigger club because of what they have achieved in the past and the size of their fan base. It would take decades of success for West Ham, Saudi Sportswashing Machine or Leeds to become as big as us.

I did not mean just in terms of footballing success. I meant it in terms of global stature, global fanbase and global presence.

I don't think it would take decades of success for clubs like west ham to reach our level of global recognition. we may be a relatively big club domestically, but our global reputation is relatively small, and is purely based off our recent successes (ie. no more than the last decade). even a club like Emirates Marketing Project has a way greater global presence than us now. and theyve only been relevant over the past handful of years.

if a club like west ham can qualify for europa league something like 4 out of 5 seasons, and they somewhat challenge for a champions league spot in those years, i think their global reputation will match ours in no time at all.


our success in the past (i mean the successes of decades ago) are almost irrelevant now (in terms of global reputation). unfortunately, football is about the here and now and our period of success is so long ago that anyone who isnt a tottenham fan has no interest in it.

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

I think that is true to a certain extent Neymar, but for west ham to get the sort of global reputation you are talking about they'd need to qualify for the champs league and perhaps even win the odd trophy. I'm confident that isn't going to happen, so at best they'll be a europa team, which as we know has its own effect on domestic form. So they'd only probably feature in it as a one off, just like they did under Padres a few years ago. Like scara says they need to be able to come close to filling they're current stadium out first before worrying about them consistently filling a ground twice that size!

I know where the opening poster is coming from though, I was born and brought up in Essex, left a few years ago and there are plenty of west ham fans there and east London obviously, but that's the only place you'll find them, they're support is so localized and they're not even the biggest supported club in Essex, it's a pretty even split between Spurs, arsenal, west ham and the traditional utd and Liverpool fans, with a smattering of Ipswich depending how north / east you go. As a rule, the a12 up to Chelmsford is a west ham stronghold, the rest of it is a mix, Harlow and chingford, buskhurst hill, sort of areas are Spurs.

Long and short of it is, global fan base wise they'd have to be a consistent champs league club to overtake us, domestically it could take a lot longer, look at city, I don't think domestically, in the uk, they're better supported than us. With the hugely fickle international fanbase its a different matter though.

 

[milo]

I did not mean just in terms of footballing success. I meant it in terms of global stature, global fanbase and global presence.

I don't think it would take decades of success for clubs like west ham to reach our level of global recognition. we may be a relatively big club domestically, but our global reputation is relatively small, and is purely based off our recent successes (ie. no more than the last decade). even a club like Emirates Marketing Project has a way greater global presence than us now. and theyve only been relevant over the past handful of years.

if a club like west ham can qualify for europa league something like 4 out of 5 seasons, and they somewhat challenge for a champions league spot in those years, i think their global reputation will match ours in no time at all.


our success in the past (i mean the successes of decades ago) are almost irrelevant now (in terms of global reputation). unfortunately, football is about the here and now and our period of success is so long ago that anyone who isnt a tottenham fan has no interest in it.

I wasn't just talking about success on the pitch either. After Manchester United, Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal we probably have the biggest international following of any English club. I am sure that Emirates Marketing Project will over take us in time but West Ham would have to have sustained success at that kind of level to surpass us.

 

[Neymar]

I wasn't just talking about success on the pitch either. After Manchester United, Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal we probably have the biggest international following of any English club. I am sure that Emirates Marketing Project will over take us in time but West Ham would have to have sustained success at that kind of level to surpass us.

Emirates Marketing Project have already overtaken us imo. and if west ham can constantly be in the europa league, and be outside challengers for the top 4, they will reach our level our stature. by constantly, i mean something like 4/5 years. its quite disgusting, but even in london, you see a lot more kids (and even adults) in Emirates Marketing Project shirts. and i swear i never saw anyone in london with a Emirates Marketing Project shirt growing up. outside of england, its not even a debate. Emirates Marketing Project will have a much larger following globally. their online presence and following dwarfs us. brands are willing to pay far more to Emirates Marketing Project for sponsorship deals. theres basically no way that we have a bigger international following than Emirates Marketing Project. i bet international tv stations show far more Emirates Marketing Project games than our games too.

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

Yea Emirates Marketing Project have overtaken us internationally, but, just for arguments sake, a few years out of the chps league or the sheikh buggers off taking his money with him and that would be gone. I know that's not going to happen, but just trying to highlight how fickle an international fan base is.

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

I disagree on west ham spending 4 or 5 years in the Europa league though, wouldn't make a blind bit of difference, the only thing this global fanbase worries about is champs league football - never gonna happen for them. Look at Everton, they're consistently on the Europa league and it hasn't made much diff to them.

 

[Neymar]

Yea Emirates Marketing Project have overtaken us internationally, but, just for arguments sake, a few years out of the chps league or the sheikh buggers off taking his money with him and that would be gone. I know that's not going to happen, but just trying to highlight how fickle an international fan base is.

yeah i 100% agree. unfortunately for us however, international fan bases are vital in today's game, and without them, we are at a big financial disadvantage. but without a financial injection, we cant build over international fan base either. Emirates Marketing Project's new training facilities probably show they will be here for a while. and these owners are definitely good for football (in general), but not good for our own sporting ambitions.

 

[Neymar]

I disagree on west ham spending 4 or 5 years in the Europa league though, wouldn't make a blind bit of difference, the only thing this global fanbase worries about is champs league football - never gonna happen for them. Look at Everton, they're consistently on the Europa league and it hasn't made much diff to them.

"the only thing this global fanbase worries about is champs league football" - we don't really have this either. thats why its relatively easy for a team like west ham to catch up with us.

"Look at Everton, they're consistently on the Europa league and it hasn't made much diff to them." - they havent been outside contenders for a ucl spot like us over the past few years

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

"the only thing this global fanbase worries about is champs league football" - we don't really have this either. thats why its relatively easy for a team like west ham to catch up with us.

"Look at Everton, they're consistently on the Europa league and it hasn't made much diff to them." - they havent been outside contenders for a ucl spot like us over the past few years

But our starting global fanbase was MUCH higher than west ham's and then on top of that we have had a recent champs league run, which I can assure you, living in mainland Europe, caught the eye of the neutrals along with a superstar in bale. West ham won't have that, they just won't, they're no further along the line than Southampton or Everton themselves in this respect really, the best they can do is Europa and that won't do anything for them.

Re challenging for champs league, I don't think it matters unless you actually make it, again west ham won't.

 

[DubaiSpur]

We have to consider it in a "covering all bases" way, like our military would have to consider an invasion from Liechtenstein.

I don't have any concerns about their new stadium - they can't even fill their current sh1tehole, let alone something much bigger with worse views. They're at least a couple of generations away from worrying us.

:ross:

Fair enough.

 

[Neymar]

But our starting global fanbase was MUCH higher than west ham's and then on top of that we have had a recent champs league run, which I can assure you, living in mainland Europe, caught the eye of the neutrals along with a superstar in bale.

this was my point exactly. if west ham can get to the levels we are at atm (the past 5 years), they will have a similar global reputation to us. my point was precisely that our global reputation is built almost solely on our results from the past 5 seasons. and has bsaically nothing to do with bill nic's team. and with luck and good management, west ham (, Saudi Sportswashing Machine, southampton etc) can get to where we are at now.

West ham won't have that, they just won't, they're no further along the line than Southampton or Everton themselves in this respect really, the best they can do is Europa and that won't do anything for them.

over the next 5 years, i dont think you can rule out the possibility that some of those teams could eclipse us. our reputation is built on recent organic sporting success. those clubs have similar sized domestic fan bases to us. they are also capable of short term success built organically. and hence they could catch up with us imo.

Re challenging for champs league, I don't think it matters unless you actually make it, again west ham won't.

true. but like us, if you keep on challenging, every once in a while, you will make the top 4. west ham won't this season, nor the next. but if they keep developing, theres no reason why they couldnt in 5 years time. thats unless, another billionaire or two buys a prem club.

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

1. My point was that our global fanbase was NOT built solely on the last 5 years, it was an add on.

2. You make me wonder about you if you think west ham or Southampton have a similar domestic fanbase to us? You don't really think that do you?

3. I guess I just don't see anything to suggest west ham are doing this organic growth thing, they've had a good transfer window where they're pushing FFP rules again (they can't do that everytime), and a decent, no more than that if your a champs league challenging club, couple of months. We've been **** and we're what 5/6 points behind them? That's not to mention utd who've now overtaken them, Liverpool who eventually will and then if us and Everton sort our lives out...