tommysvr
Vedran Corluka
Not meaning to shut down your discussion on it; but I think often perception is different from reality in these things.
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Ange in or out?
- Thread starter Yiddo
- Start date
Not meaning to shut down your discussion on it; but I think often perception is different from reality in these things.
Baleforce
Les Bennett
Pochettinos use of subs was regularly complained about
tommysvr
Vedran Corluka
Right…but my numbers clearly show it’s part of a pattern. I imagine a pattern that spreads across the league.
tommysvr
Vedran Corluka
Baleforce
Les Bennett
Looks like much earlier subs there imo.
glorygloryeze
Tom Huddlestone
Objectively, the writing does look to be on the wall for Ange, sadly...
His tactics and way of playing, whilst often exhilarating (especially for the neutral) it is not a sustainable way of playing long-term: the constant 100 mph football without much in he sense of control is what is leading to the lack of clean sheets, constant injuries and (i think, eventually) lots of big beatings. Ange has had long enough to show that we can play in a way to bring a measure of control when we take a lead but often doesn't seem capable of doing so. His tactics remind me of school playground football amongst youngsters where everyone is chasing the ball en masse back and forth and it's often quite naive.
It's fitting that just over a year later we take a lead against Chelsea and go on to again collapse but the signs of lacking any kind of streetwise smarts were actually evident last year when we continued playing the high-line even we went down to 9 men and were without the key players that made the high-line workable. That was Ossie Ardiles-style craziness imo then, but many shouted me down then saying it was more about "instilling a mentality" etc than the result.
Well, a year later and here we are....
Ange looks and speaks like someone who really doesn't have a clue what he's doing in this ultra competitive league the PL is. The excuses that even he himself seems to be spouting are wearing thin too:
- "if Sonny scored that goal we probably go on to win"; Really? Two-goal leads can't be kept, late leads often recently too, e.g. Roma
-rash challenges in the box (and elsewhere); Bissouma and others have caused us trouble by dribbling, doing suicidal things near our own goal: remember how he said he instructs such play when Bissouma nonsense led to Emirates Marketing Project's third goal at the Etihad last season?
- When pressed on us not being able to keep leads, has he not been the one who answers as though we shouldn't care because it's entertainment? deflection much? I actually think it's more he doesn't know how to set up a defensively sound structure and so answers with BS to deflect.
This is a guy that claims to want to win, yet can't give any answers or show any acumen in terms of having sound defensive structures?
So really his time could very well be up. If anyone is honest here, it's really only his likeable persona and the fear of the unknown next steps that make you think otherwise; it's been long enough for him to show he has enough coaching acumen to make the squad more than the sum of it's parts and we've been on a downward trajectory for many months now, with or without key injuries.
But then i also just know that he is as much a victim of the way we operate as any other manager; last summer's business was either the club not showing much faith in him or the club doing what it often does: reverting to cheaper 'youth' and 'in a few years time' punts who often have potential to be profitable instead of looking at trying to achieve things for now.
Remember we finished 5th and not far short of 4th (and that was even with 4th getting a relatively low points total historically) and we needed key elements added to propel us upwards (assuming we want to aim for that, personally i wonder if club are banking on 5th place being a CL spot this year and were aiming/hoping for that...)
My guess is as follows:
They were similarly unimpressed with some of the tactical flaws showed by Ange as many in the football world and us fans were and thought internally "do we really want to blow a big load of cash on this guy?" and decided to buy generically for future seasons assuming it quite likely Ange and his tactics fizzle out.
I also think what is likely is that Ange rather than being sacked will be allowed to stay on but without much backing in January and make himself untenable by continued poor form and then himself resign.
Our attractiveness to top, ambitious coaches is near zero (we've seen this by how we came to have employed Ange in the first place) and i think the club will hide behind Ange for as long as they can (he is the shield of this "pretending to be ambitious on the football field" operation after all).
A shame all round but as i say, the writing is on the wall
His tactics and way of playing, whilst often exhilarating (especially for the neutral) it is not a sustainable way of playing long-term: the constant 100 mph football without much in he sense of control is what is leading to the lack of clean sheets, constant injuries and (i think, eventually) lots of big beatings. Ange has had long enough to show that we can play in a way to bring a measure of control when we take a lead but often doesn't seem capable of doing so. His tactics remind me of school playground football amongst youngsters where everyone is chasing the ball en masse back and forth and it's often quite naive.
It's fitting that just over a year later we take a lead against Chelsea and go on to again collapse but the signs of lacking any kind of streetwise smarts were actually evident last year when we continued playing the high-line even we went down to 9 men and were without the key players that made the high-line workable. That was Ossie Ardiles-style craziness imo then, but many shouted me down then saying it was more about "instilling a mentality" etc than the result.
Well, a year later and here we are....
Ange looks and speaks like someone who really doesn't have a clue what he's doing in this ultra competitive league the PL is. The excuses that even he himself seems to be spouting are wearing thin too:
- "if Sonny scored that goal we probably go on to win"; Really? Two-goal leads can't be kept, late leads often recently too, e.g. Roma
-rash challenges in the box (and elsewhere); Bissouma and others have caused us trouble by dribbling, doing suicidal things near our own goal: remember how he said he instructs such play when Bissouma nonsense led to Emirates Marketing Project's third goal at the Etihad last season?
- When pressed on us not being able to keep leads, has he not been the one who answers as though we shouldn't care because it's entertainment? deflection much? I actually think it's more he doesn't know how to set up a defensively sound structure and so answers with BS to deflect.
This is a guy that claims to want to win, yet can't give any answers or show any acumen in terms of having sound defensive structures?
So really his time could very well be up. If anyone is honest here, it's really only his likeable persona and the fear of the unknown next steps that make you think otherwise; it's been long enough for him to show he has enough coaching acumen to make the squad more than the sum of it's parts and we've been on a downward trajectory for many months now, with or without key injuries.
But then i also just know that he is as much a victim of the way we operate as any other manager; last summer's business was either the club not showing much faith in him or the club doing what it often does: reverting to cheaper 'youth' and 'in a few years time' punts who often have potential to be profitable instead of looking at trying to achieve things for now.
Remember we finished 5th and not far short of 4th (and that was even with 4th getting a relatively low points total historically) and we needed key elements added to propel us upwards (assuming we want to aim for that, personally i wonder if club are banking on 5th place being a CL spot this year and were aiming/hoping for that...)
My guess is as follows:
They were similarly unimpressed with some of the tactical flaws showed by Ange as many in the football world and us fans were and thought internally "do we really want to blow a big load of cash on this guy?" and decided to buy generically for future seasons assuming it quite likely Ange and his tactics fizzle out.
I also think what is likely is that Ange rather than being sacked will be allowed to stay on but without much backing in January and make himself untenable by continued poor form and then himself resign.
Our attractiveness to top, ambitious coaches is near zero (we've seen this by how we came to have employed Ange in the first place) and i think the club will hide behind Ange for as long as they can (he is the shield of this "pretending to be ambitious on the football field" operation after all).
A shame all round but as i say, the writing is on the wall
Finney Is Back
Andy Thompson
Or perhaps get yourself a better chief buyer?
tommysvr
Vedran Corluka
Mourinho's Peak Periods (46+ mins):
1. 60-64 mins: 38 substitutions
2. 70-74 mins: 37 substitutions
3. 80-84 mins: 35 substitutions
Marginally earlier, I guess. But what's your point?
tommysvr
Vedran Corluka
1) Ange is responsible for rash challenges? That's somehow comparable to playing the ball out from the back? What?
2) He never said we shouldn't care because it's entertainment. That is absolute nonsense...just complete and utter garbage. If that's what you took from his comments, then that's on you, not him.
I think you'd need to delve further than a comparison to one other manager who we know was also criticised for his use of subs in order to prove that
tommysvr
Vedran Corluka
I literally did that in my very next post........
glorygloryeze
Tom Huddlestone
1) Anghe is responsible for the system which is defensively unstructured; it's based on running around at 100 mph and yes, often that will lead to rash challenges because the players eventually get fatigued etc. Playing out from the back constantly, even when it's clearly too risky to do so, is also a symptom of the system
2) instead of answering a question about how much extra pressure not closing the EL game down puts on our future games, he instead went on about 'entertainment' as though there was nothing tactical to see here or worry about. Ok tell me, what did YOU take from his answer then?
Finney Is Back
Andy Thompson
Indeed. Always easy for fans to pick apart the lack of subs made but rarely do those same fans consider the actual situation developing in the game. Romero and Johnson being forced off and Mickey only likely having 60 to 70 minutes in his legs hampered Ange considerably.
Grays_1890
Barry Daines
Regardless of if he stays or goes its hard not to see he is another manager suffering at the hands of "tomorrow never comes" in terms of squad development. I am massively encouraged by the progress in future buys, I think Bergvall and Gray are exceptional future buys, I think Ode is also one that looks a talent and Udogie despite looking knackered is still one I rate highly. The issue is clearly who is here for now? Solanke is big money and is a very good player, but we are still a massive CF down for the bench or as comp (I don't include Richy for 2 reasons). Son who I have loved is a season here too long, likely to be another. Could go on and on
Whoever gets the job has a massive job on their hands to punch above their weight
Whoever gets the job has a massive job on their hands to punch above their weight
Baleforce
Les Bennett
Give the players you bring on more time to effect the game.
When it’s not working, change it sooner.
fernadez
Jermaine Jenas
Unsucessfully playing the ball out from the back/dribbling is a risk/reward situation. When it fails it will result in turnovers close to our own goal and players out of position. From this position the likelihood of rash challenges increases as it also does when not defending in set shape.
I don't think he's responsible for every single rash challenge made, but I think our playing style increases the chances of them happening. If we're not perfect with out approach play we give up high percentage chances. Even when we defend successfully it's often last ditch, Bissouma yesterday gave the ball away then tried to rectify his mistake, it happens but we frequently get caught in areas we don't need to be.
Baleforce
Les Bennett
Maybe, but you have to get something on the table for the next serving from what you have in the fridge.
In retrospect Amazon should’ve waited until now to do their All or Nothing series on Spurs because that’s exactly what this way of playing gives us. In still Ange-in - though we could finish anywhere from 8-16th in the league this season I’m interested in seeing where we go in the cups. And I’m tired of the managerial merry-go-round.
Edit: plus we could end up with Southgate.
Edit: plus we could end up with Southgate.
tommysvr
Vedran Corluka
1) You think Ange is responsible for Bissouma diving in like that and Sarr for literally tripping someone over as they're running away from goal? You think that's a flaw in the system? I can see why you want him out then.
2) I don't take everything he says as gospel. Have you done that with any other manager?