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Ange in or out?

Ange in or out?

  • In

    Votes: 83 77.6%

  • Out

    Votes: 24 22.4%
  • Total voters
    107
Finney Is Back said:
Regarding your last sentence.... On thing I would state here is that AVB was sacked after we'd had a relatively stable period (stable for us anyway) with Redknapp in charge of the club. Sacking AVB after 16 months or whatever it was after having Redknapp in for 4 years prior to that was going to lead to our third manager in over 5 years

Whereas over a similar five year period just gone we've had Pochettino, Mourinho, Mason, Nuno, Conte, Stellini, Mason, Postegcoglou. Sacking Postecoglou would see us bringing 9th manager in 5 years and that's before you consider that we'd likely need some sort of caretaker before getting the manager in.
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Those are all fair points, but i feel you have to separate whether you think a manager is good enough to be kept and backed vs how stable we have or haven't been before that manager was employed. Hence if some feel Ange is not the one who should be in charge of the team, who will be the main part of the 'rebuild' and in whom future transfers should be based upon, that isn't knee-jerk as it will have been based on about 18 months of seeing first-hand how he works.
You can also have 'drift' at a club if it's clear that a manager isn't right/suited to teh competitivenes of the league etc.

For example, were Man Utd and their fans 'knee-jerking' when they started wanting Ten Haag out? What about Arsenal with Emery? Were they knee-jerk in getting rid of him when they did and do you think they regret sacking him for Arteta at this point?

As i say, you might disagree with people who think Ange has run his course but i think its wrong that they are labelled 'knee-jerkers'
 
Kandi1977 said:
It's more palatable because it's stupid to sack managers every 18 months! That will bring us absolutely nowhere! The only way to succeed for us, will be through continuity. Chopping and changing every time there's a bump in the road, only harms us more in the long run!
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For how long does it remain palatable? To be clear I'm on the fence (reads apathetic), but it's not just a patchy bit of form, it's almost pretty much a calender year of bad results.

There's no guarantees either way I guess, changing things could make it worse / better, much like if we don't change anything etc etc.

Chelsea are an interesting example although the circumstances are different - it looked mad that they got rid of Poch just when he got them looking like a team, and then the new guy from the championship has had them become a force.

It's not a linear line of progress plotted against how long someone has been at the club, it's more like an inverse relationship if it's the wrong person staying longer at the club...
 
glorygloryeze said:
Those are all fair points, but i feel you have to separate whether you think a manager is good enough to be kept and backed vs how stable we have or haven't been before that manager was employed. Hence if some feel Ange is not the one who should be in charge of the team, who will be the main part of the 'rebuild' and in whom future transfers should be based upon, that isn't knee-jerk as it will have been based on about 18 months of seeing first-hand how he works.
You can also have 'drift' at a club if it's clear that a manager isn't right/suited to teh competitivenes of the league etc.

For example, were Man Utd and their fans 'knee-jerking' when they started wanting Ten Haag out? What about Arsenal with Emery? Were they knee-jerk in getting rid of him when they did and do you think they regret sacking him for Arteta at this point?

As i say, you might disagree with people who think Ange has run his course but i think its wrong that they are labelled 'knee-jerkers'
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We're in the infancy of our 5th rebuild in 5 years..... Personally I think it will be folly to commence our 6th at this point.

Re: Arsenal. I think so yes. I think they should've stuck with Emery.
Re: Man Utd. Difficult to say. Ten Haag got 2.5 years and also a had a lot of money spent on a number of players. We're still more than a year away from Postecoglou being given that same amount of time. Man Utd have also appointed one of the best managers out there in Amorim (if you remember I suggested him as probably the most sensible option for who should take over when we binned Conte). I don't think Spurs would be able to attract anyone of the same calibre.
 
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spurspinter1 said:
Chelsea are an interesting example although the circumstances are different - it looked mad that they got rid of Poch just when he got them looking like a team, and then the new guy from the championship has had them become a force
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And why is that? They spent time buying young players, and none of them knew what they were doing in the beginning, but with TIME they have adapted, evolved and improved. We all (should) know this would take time, so we bloody well should give him some time. 15 months is nothing! We need at least another season to see where things are going. The league is wide open, but we ain't gonna get relegated. A little run of games, and you're suddenly top 5 again.
There's no crisis. Time, time, time. That's what is needed. There's also the January transfer window, and alot can happen between now and May.
 
Finney Is Back said:
We're in the infancy of our 5th rebuild in 5 years..... Personally I think it will be folly to commence our 6th at this point.

Re: Arsenal. I think so yes. I think they should've stuck with Emery.
Re: Man Utd. Difficult to say. Ten Haag got 2.5 years and also a had a lot of money spent on a number of players. We're still more than a year away from Postecoglou being given that same amount of time. Man Utd have also appointed one of the best managers out there in Amorim (if you remember I suggested him as probably the most sensible option for who should take over when we binned Conte). I don't think Spurs would be able to attract anyone of the same calibre.
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Man utd fans wanted him out at a similar time in his tenure. Obviously the difference was that he backed even after that and then sacked. You could argue Man Utd have set themselves (even if they have the right coach now) further back than if they'd pulled the trigger earlier because they spent even more money in the sumer on ETH players who are probably even more unsuited to Amorim than if they'd left it alone...

You could argue if we stay with Ange and he doesn't evolve and we end up finishing, say 13th, and don't win a trophy (again) and so we are out of Europe again, that we'd put ourselves in an even worse position that we did in the months after Conte left...

Swings and roundabouts.

Edit - But again, if the club choose to relieve Ange of his duties after another poor run (currently we have 1 win in 7 and have lost more than we've won in the league so far, perhaps similar figures since last autumn...) then you could argue that it stops a rot of sorts before another appointment that might get better out of what we have, instil tactics that better suit the squad and the rigours of the PL and leaves the next manager a lot less of the 'rot' to turn around..
 
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Finney Is Back said:
Not convinced he does to be honest. At least not compared to do the other clubs playing in Europe. I think we have space for another 3 or 4 players aged over 21 in our PL squad.
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Official Website
Venom, Forster, Austin, Whiteman
Porro, Spence, Udogie, Reguilon
Romero, VDV, Dragusin, Davies
Bissouma, Bentancur, Sarr, Gray, Bergval
Maddison, Kulusevski
Johnson, Sonny, Werner, Odobert
Solanke, Richarlison

1st team loans: Hojbjerg, Gil, Solomon, Phillips, Veliz, Scarlett, Devine.

It's 25 players plus Mikey Moore as the 26th player we see with the 1st team.

When you look closely, you see 22 outfield players reduced to 18 for a massive part of the season because of Richi/Odobert injuries and Ange not including Spence/Reggie in his plans. Ange won't get any sympathy from me on the latter. It is his choices that has reduced his own squad. This is made even worse by naming Whiteman instead of Gunter as your 4th UEFA keeper, and having Spence or Reggie involved.

For me, the only gap in depth I see compared to other EL squads is a 5th specialist centre half. That's probably a fair call and I have a feeling the club tried to solve that in the summer. The rest is down to Ange. We've been here so many times where a manager accepts the terms of being the Spurs manager and then refuses to use the resources given to them in a given season. With this current manager, he's not only working with less but he's expecting a higher workload in 90 mins than any other PL team. He's making his squad smaller again by breaking them.

I personally think if we gave him 3 or 4 more over 21's we'd suffer from the quantity over quality issue again. We'd have to follow the Chelsea model for PL vs UEFA and we'd have dissatisfied U21's who would be sitting on their hands. I'm good with bringing in 1 or 2 quality and displacing a couple in January though.
 
glorygloryeze said:
Man utd fans wanted him out at a similar time in his tenure. Obviously the difference was that he backed even after that and then sacked. You could argue Man Utd have set themselves (even if they have the right coach now) further back than if they'd pulled the trigger earlier because they spent even more money in the sumer on ETH players who are probably even more unsuited to Amorim than if they'd left it alone...

You could argue if we stay with Ange and he doesn't evolve and we end up finishing, say 13th, and don't win a trophy (again) and so we are out of Europe again, that we'd put ourselves in an even worse position that we did in the months after Conte left...

Swings and roundabouts.

Edit - But again, if the club choose to relieve Ange of his duties after another poor run (currently we have 1 win in 7 and have lost more than we've won in the league so far, perhaps similar figures since last autumn...)
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ETH and Amorin are both front foot managers and I have a feeling that the Utd good signings would be good for both of them and vice versa.

Conte was at odds with Paratici who bought players for our club's philosophy, not for his incumbent manager. However, they've been mostly good for Ange. If we iterate again then any signing (e.g. no 6) that is good for Ange will probably be perfect for the next guy as well.
 
Muttley said:
ETH and Amorin are both front foot managers and I have a feeling that the Utd good signings would be good for both of them and vice versa.

Conte was at odds with Paratici who bought players for our club's philosophy, not for his incumbent manager. However, they've been mostly good for Ange. If we iterate again then any signing (e.g. no 6) that is good for Ange will probably be perfect for the next guy as well.
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Depends who the next guy is. I have less confidence than you that the club get a continuation candidate.
 
Finney Is Back said:
We're in the infancy of our 5th rebuild in 5 years..... Personally I think it will be folly to commence our 6th at this point.

Re: Arsenal. I think so yes. I think they should've stuck with Emery.
Re: Man Utd. Difficult to say. Ten Haag got 2.5 years and also a had a lot of money spent on a number of players. We're still more than a year away from Postecoglou being given that same amount of time. Man Utd have also appointed one of the best managers out there in Amorim (if you remember I suggested him as probably the most sensible option for who should take over when we binned Conte). I don't think Spurs would be able to attract anyone of the same calibre.
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I think we are in our first rebuild to be honest

- Jose/Conte was an attempt to milk the last out of a previous squad (specifically Lloris, Kane, Son) with a few additionas
- Ange is our first real dump everyone and start over, probably 18 of the 25 are here less than 3 seasons?

I agree with going for another rebuild would be stupid.

Re the other comments, ETH to me was always a strange one and it was clear in his first year he had no model to really change United, under pressure or against better teams he would resort to OGS tactics of sit in (basically lower level PL team tactics with better players) and counter, it managed to get them cup results but never looked viable in the league, in addition his buys like Anthony & Casimiro are objectively firing offenses on their own.
 
I'm on the fence with Ange but think we should give him this season. Their preferred formations may be very different but for me he is similar to Hoddle, in that he is trying to build a Ferrari of a team, but without the budget for Ferrari quality players. So under Glenn the Ferrari was beaten by teams who were just effective Ford Transits. But a plain old Transit will always get from A to Z, a highly-tuned Ferrari ain't so reliable.
 
lurker of old said:
I'm on the fence with Ange but think we should give him this season. Their preferred formations may be very different but for me he is similar to Hoddle, in that he is trying to build a Ferrari of a team, but without the budget for Ferrari quality players. So under Glenn the Ferrari was beaten by teams who were just effective Ford Transits. But a plain old Transit will always get from A to Z, a highly-tuned Ferrari ain't so reliable.
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So on the two things there

- He deserves the season, we saw last season at Chelsea that a good run at end of season can really change the season perspective, I also think he has the opportunity to do something in the cups
- Not sure if the issue is all high level players, our problem isn't as much against the best teams (our record isn't that bad there), it's more you need a full squad of suited players (we often have balance issues), I think the physical asks are too much unless you really have a big squad of interchangeable players
 
lurker of old said:
I'm on the fence with Ange but think we should give him this season. Their preferred formations may be very different but for me he is similar to Hoddle, in that he is trying to build a Ferrari of a team, but without the budget for Ferrari quality players. So under Glenn the Ferrari was beaten by teams who were just effective Ford Transits. But a plain old Transit will always get from A to Z, a highly-tuned Ferrari ain't so reliable.
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With analogies like that you’re going to be invited on to Last Word On Spurs. :)
 
Kandi1977 said:
And why is that? They spent time buying young players, and none of them knew what they were doing in the beginning, but with TIME they have adapted, evolved and improved. We all (should) know this would take time, so we bloody well should give him some time. 15 months is nothing! We need at least another season to see where things are going. The league is wide open, but we ain't gonna get relegated. A little run of games, and you're suddenly top 5 again.
There's no crisis. Time, time, time. That's what is needed. There's also the January transfer window, and alot can happen between now and May.
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They changed their manager and now it's going well....That doesn't suit your idea that changing things is a bad idea.
 
glorygloryeze said:
Both teams had good balance between attack and defence, especially Pochettino's who possibly had both the best striker in our time and the best CB partnership. Imo, both of them had much better balance between attacking and defending than Ange has shown.


I was resigned to his time ending from the summer that year, so wehn he was sacked for me it was sadly inevitable...

I wasn't specifically wanting him to be replaced by Jose though as he was by then, imo, already a busted flush. But, he was at least a manager i could see the owner's logic for employing as he did have a recent record of winning a trophy - IF he had wads of cash to spend...so naturally i though getting him meant we were going to act like we had just increased our spending power, i mean why else would we hire Jose, right? Right?

Of course, we all know the act of 'winging it' and a charade that turned out to be...
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Jose was a busted flush and should never have been appointed.
However I don't think he expected loads money, because I don't think he was planning to hang around.
He looked at Poch squad, thought he could get them over the line in a cup and enhance his reputation again.
The manager that did the impossible, a trophy at spurs, and he'd be off to bigger and better things again.
Jose rinsed levy, well and truly.
 
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