Ange in or out?

[Finney Is Back]

I'm sorry, but what evidence have you seen over the last 18 months that suggests Ange has the tactical acumen to get us where we'd want to be or even closer to it than we are now?
We are progressively getting worse imo, and i see our lack of defensive structure now catching up with us. It would seem that for Ange to succeed he needs Pep levels of funding, funding we will never see any manager given under our ownership model.

We should be able to be more nuanced than just charging forward and backwards at 100 mph all the time

I've not seen anything from any manager since Pochettino showing tactical acumen to get us to where we want to be..... and do you know why? Because this damn club will not give anyone the time to actually go through a coherent rebuild and reap the benefits.

We have a minority of vociferous knee-jerkers that start crying as soon as the going gets tough. We'll forever go through the cycle of new manager bounce and then sacked 6 to 16 months later.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

This is actually really interesting.... and shows how we have reduced the size of the squad (and wage bill) despite having an additional (really tough) competition to play in.

Gil - replaced by Mikey Moore
Scarlett - replaced by Lankshear
Solomon - replaced by Odobert
Veliz - replaced by Solanke
Dier - replaced by Dragusin (I know the timings didn't match but he was in effect the replacement)
Perisic - not replaced
Skipp - replaced by Gray
Hojberg - not replaced
Royal - replaced by Spence (back from loan)
Lo Celso - replaced by Bergwal
Tanganga - not replaced
Sessgnon - not replaced

I don't think many managers in the game would've accepted losing so many experienced players and not replacing them with similar. Maybe Ange is really brave? Or maybe the above shows why we ended up with a manager who had only managed in weak leagues as no manager coming from the higher ranked leagues would touch us with a bargepole?

I think Ange rates his chances over time
I also think he will be given time despite our club history
I’m convinced other managers would love to join us and we will see that when Ange goes

 

[Finney Is Back]

We can go on about our squad and its quality, but ultimately if your manager doesn't know how to set up a system that is more defensively smart and not simply based on running up and down the pitch at 100 mph then it realy doesn't matter what squad options we provide.
I'm not seeing any growth in terms of the players under Ange's direction, if anything most are going backwards and we are as naive in our play as we ever were last year.

We've had games where we've had little to no injuries and had the same rest as the opposition and still played the same, so the excuses wear thin now

Like Mourinho you mean? How did that managerial stint go for you?

 

[Finney Is Back]

Richarlson and then Lankshere for CF options behind Solonke before considering other players who can and have played there throughout their career - that's good depth.

LW/F - Son/Odobert/Werner/Moore

RW/F - Johnson/Kulusevski/Odobert/Moore(?)

We may be lacking some high end quality but we have depth up front. Can't be arsed to go through the whole squad now but bar GK or LB we have at least a good quality backup up player to call on. Our injury numbers are high though so we've been left short as a result

Lol....
Perma crocked Richarlison and a youth team player who isn't yet anywhere near ready for first team PL football.
LW: Odobert - injured. Moore - out ill (and only 17 years old). That leaves Son (well past his best now) and Werner (I can still remember the gnashing of teeth on here when he signed).
RW: Two of the same players named for left wing (who aren't available) Johnson (who several on here don't stop moaning about) and Kulu (who is now mainly playing centrally).

 

[billyiddo]

This is actually really interesting.... and shows how we have reduced the size of the squad (and wage bill) despite having an additional (really tough) competition to play in.

Gil - replaced by Mikey Moore
Scarlett - replaced by Lankshear
Solomon - replaced by Odobert
Veliz - replaced by Solanke
Dier - replaced by Dragusin (I know the timings didn't match but he was in effect the replacement)
Perisic - not replaced
Skipp - replaced by Gray
Hojberg - not replaced
Royal - replaced by Spence (back from loan)
Lo Celso - replaced by Bergwal
Tanganga - not replaced
Sessgnon - not replaced

I don't think many managers in the game would've accepted losing so many experienced players and not replacing them with similar. Maybe Ange is really brave? Or maybe the above shows why we ended up with a manager who had only managed in weak leagues as no manager coming from the higher ranked leagues would touch us with a bargepole?

We've had a bloated squad the last few years some of those listed above do not require a direct replacement as the goal will have been to reduce numbers

 

[billyiddo]

Lol....
Perma crocked Richarlison and a youth team player who isn't yet anywhere near ready for first team PL football.
LW: Odobert - injured. Moore - out ill (and only 17 years old). That leaves Son (well past his best now) and Werner (I can still remember the gnashing of teeth on here when he signed).
RW: Two of the same players named for left wing (who aren't available) Johnson (who several on here don't stop moaning about) and Kulu (who is now mainly playing centrally).

We're talking depth, you can't just discount players because they have picked up injuries.

 

[Grays_1890]

Richarlson and then Lankshere for CF options behind Solonke before considering other players who can and have played there throughout their career - that's good depth.

LW/F - Son/Odobert/Werner/Moore

RW/F - Johnson/Kulusevski/Odobert/Moore(?)

We may be lacking some high end quality but we have depth up front. Can't be arsed to go through the whole squad now but bar GK or LB we have at least a good quality backup up player to call on. Our injury numbers are high though so we've been left short as a result

As I say there are marks against at least 2 of those on either side be is age, loan or quality. Then there is a reliance on players covering more than one position which I question their quality in their own at the moment.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Then get your head in the real world and change your vision to a realistic one.

I realise that the height of your ambition is to scrape an AA rosette and to be fair that may even line up with the owners ambition (as long as it doesn't require any outside investment of course). Our manager's ambition is a lot higher though.

 

[Baleforce]

Yet a small but noisy contingent of knee-jerkers want to (again) jeapordise the rebuild by getting rid of a person brave enough to try to transform the club into one that can actually win trophies.

I bet it is the same vociferous, knee jerking minority that wanted Pochettino out who also want Ange gone.

Is it knee jerk?

We’ve been brick for about a year now.

 

[Baleforce]

Like Mourinho you mean? How did that managerial stint go for you?

Now there is a manager who wasn’t given enough time.

 

[Finney Is Back]

We're talking depth, you can't just discount players because they have picked up injuries.

Let's compare and contrast with Chelsea shall we?....
Cole Palmer, Jason Sancho, Pedro Neto, Mudryk, Nkunku, Madueke, Kellyman, Joao Felix.

 

[glorygloryeze]

The start of last season will be held up. You could look at the Villa game at their place last year, Villa at home this year, the City game. I'm sure there are more but they're the most high profile examples as well as Ange's previous successes (which, granted, were at an inferior level).

There are examples where we've looked sensational and if you're in the "Ange in" camp, you'd point to them and say "if we can reproduce those performances more consistently, we'll do great". If you're in the "Ange out" camp, you'd say those performances are the exception rather than the norm.

I don't know who is right but I do think Ange deserves more time to see if he can find consistency because fire him now and we're gonna finish mid table anyway and have to start again. He may not work out but I think we as a club and as a set of supporters need to show a bit of steel and maturity and try to ride this rough patch out and see where we are in the summer.

Personally, i think this will be as good as it gets in the league this season. I haven't seen anything that says Ange can hold his own consistently in the league. For every Emirates Marketing Project game, there will be two or three like the last two imo.

I'm only hopeful for a cup and have my fingers crossed we can overcome Man Utd in the league cup quarters to at least have some semi-final games to look forward to in the new year.

 

[Baleforce]

I realise that the height of your ambition is to scrape an AA rosette and to be fair that may even line up with the owners ambition (as long as it doesn't require any outside investment of course). Our manager's ambition is a lot higher though.

Is it, it appears he doesn’t even want to win certain games, let alone trophies.

And what did he say the other week about entertainment?

 

[Finney Is Back]

Is it knee jerk?

We’ve been brick for about a year now.

Yes, it is massively knee jerk. Just as you knee-jerked wanting Pochettino sacked.

You can see from @Bedfordspurs post above how the club has massively cut the size of the squad and the level of experience within it. That is really brave of the manager to allow that to happen. However, it will clearly need time for that to pay dividends.

 

[billyiddo]

Let's compare and contrast with Chelsea shall we?....
Cole Palmer, Jason Sancho, Pedro Neto, Mudryk, Nkunku, Madueke, Kellyman, Joao Felix.

That's not a good faith argument and you should be smart enough to know it so don't waste mine and your time.

 

[Baleforce]

Yes, it is massively knee jerk. Just as you knee-jerked wanting Pochettino sacked.

You can see from @Bedfordspurs post above how the club has massively cut the size of the squad and the level of experience within it. That is really brave of the manager to allow that to happen. However, it will clearly need time for that to pay dividends.

He’s had loads of time.

I think we should be seeing a more by now.

It wasn’t knee jerk with Poch either, again it was about a year after things started going to brick.

 

[glorygloryeze]

I've not seen anything from any manager since Pochettino showing tactical acumen to get us to where we want to be..... and do you know why? Because this damn club will not give anyone the time to actually go through a coherent rebuild and reap the benefits.

We have a minority of vociferous knee-jerkers that start crying as soon as the going gets tough. We'll forever go through the cycle of new manager bounce and then sacked 6 to 16 months later.

Knee-jerker fans don't help, but i don't think evaluating that a manger won't suceed because of that manager's inherant flaws and how they don't fit the league or us as a club is knee-jerk.

The club owners ultimately are to blame for the position we find ourselves in overall i agree

 

[glorygloryeze]

Like Mourinho you mean? How did that managerial stint go for you?

What about Conte? Are you going to use him as an example instead?

 

[Mr Gogolak]

I ran the numbers for all managers as percentages. The fact that Harry Redknapp is by far and away the most proactive manager in terms of making changes during the middle third of the game will irk a bunch of the 'manager snobs' on here I'm sure

(Redknapp also the manager who made the highest percentage of changes at half time - which I suppose is the main driver of the above)

I'm not sure about the relevance of such stats anyway, because they largely depend on the squad available (at some point, we had Defoe, Keane and Berbatov together, which makes the rotation easier), the league position of the club and the circumstances of each and every game. Most substitutions happen in the latter stages anyway, if only because some managers use them so that certain players get their appearance fees, for instance.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

What about Conte? Are you going to use him as an example instead?

Conte this jan will be interesting now they ain’t top