Ange in or out?

[Baleforce]

An viewpoint worth pondering, from profspur‪@profspur.bsky.social‬
1) If you look at the 'play styles' and tactics of teams competing at the very top of the table--competing for the title--what they have in common is they're all about controlling the game, forcing opponents to adapt, rather than the other way around
2) Could Spurs pick up a few more points by doing the kinds of things, tactically, that a lot of our frustrated fans want them to do? Sitting deeper, playing more conservatively, etc.? Maybe. We don't look great defending behind the ball anyway, but maybe
3) But if you think that way then you're missing the point. If you want to battle for 'top 4' then you can do all the things the match comms and frustrated fans want Ange to do. All the 'be pragmatic stuff.' You want to know why all the ex-pro pundits want that for Spurs?
4) Because they don't think of Spurs as a team that challenges for titles. They don't think of Spurs as a team that imposes themselves on every opponent, regardless of who they are. They think of Spurs as a team that should be beating up on weaker opponents and fearing top sides.
5) That's why they're telling Ange to be practical. It's a backhanded compliment. It's saying 'you can achieve something--not something great, but something OK--if you just know your place and play pragmatic football.'
6) I get why ex-Liverpool, Man Utd, Arsenal players think that way about 'Lads, it's Tottenham.' What I don't get is why our own fans think that way. Because one thing about Ange that you can't take away from him is he absolutely does not think that way
7) The way Ange is setting this team up to play is all about dominating football matches. In terms of personnel we're not there yet, so it's not gonna be easy, nor always pleasant. But the transformation he's working on in this club is changing us from
8) ... a 'best of the rest' club that's expected to win against everyone but the legacies--and ridiculed when we lose to a lesser opponent, and ridiculed when we *beat* a grander opponent--into a genuine contender for the top 1-2 spots. ...
9) And again you don't become a genuine contender for the title by playing reactive football. Our fanbase has gotten so used to being pretty good that they've lost sight of what it means to be great. /end

Their conclusions are all wrong.

Being pragmatic is how you win the league, yes reactive football is how you get success.

 

[Baleforce]

Don't get me wrong, Eze is a talent, would be an asset and help us. But he's not a 'blank check' player - you don't just pay anything demanded for him because he doesn't currently make enough of the promising positions he creates.

We still need to move on some players, and upgrade them. Richarlison first and foremost. Not having him available this season has been a massive hit because of the way we play. Ange's forwards are often sacrificial. They run. They have to close, they have to tackle, and make runs to open up space. Ange doesn't mind if his forward is not always scoring, so long as he's opening up space for others. Solanke has taken up the mantel. But normally he'd be getting replaced at 65 mins, and rotated in cup games.

When you come up against a side like Bournemouth who are fresh and drilled to track our runners with diligence, the lack of freshness from Solanke, Kulu, Son and Maddison is crucial.

If Eze was a player that would guarantee us CL qualification Palace would have a lot more points.

He’s basically Maddison.

 

[Muttley]

What I find so interesting about this debate is that we often hear that Ange hasn't got the players for his system yet. He apparently needs time.

Poch 4231: Venom; Porro, Romero, VDV, Udogie; Bents, Biss; Son, Madds, Kulu; Solanke (or use Sarr, Johnson)
Conte 343: Venom; Romero, Dragu, VDV; Porro, Bents, Biss, Udoigie; Johnson, Solanke, Sonny
Conte 352 (Serie A): Venom; Romero, Dragu, VDV; Porro, Madds, Biss, Kulu, Udoigie; Solanke, Sonny
Jose 433: Venom; Porro, Romero, VDV, Udogie; Sarr, Bents, Biss; Sonny, Solanke, Johnson

I think you all know where I'm going with this. Everything we learned from our old managers tactical systems would work better with this current squad, with the exception of Poch's 16/17 team. Whether it's counter attacking from Conte, or a deeper lying defence from Jose with a midfield shielder or we go back to the high press Poch system, they all look like they should work. It's a much deeper squad than Poch had as well.

I still cannot fathom why Ange's system isn't working with this squad. He has access to all of these tactical systems, or components of them, but is steadfast that his system is the way to go. His choices on full-backs, numbers 6's and having wide forwards is a deliberate choice and arguably it's not working at the moment.

 

[Muttley]

The other thing that might throw some fuel on the Ange-out movement is if we look like we won't qualify for Europe. Just like last season, EL should be table stakes and CL should be upside. Next season CL should be the big aim.

So imagine a scenario where we're not even going to get ECL. We have an abundance of these young players coming through and only have the PL and domestic cups again next season because we finish something like 8th. Personally, I think that would set this plan back. That will put huge pressure on Ange.

 

[90291Spur]

As has been said, Ange has to be given time. If he is backed. We can't keep knee jerking and binning off managers. We all knew that this re-build would be painful, and here is the pain. Ange needs to learn and grow and improve as does the squad. We will be a better club if the powers that be trust the process and keep their nerve.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

The other thing that might throw some fuel on the Ange-out movement is if we look like we won't qualify for Europe. Just like last season, EL should be table stakes and CL should be upside. Next season CL should be the big aim.

So imagine a scenario where we're not even going to get ECL. We have an abundance of these young players coming through and only have the PL and domestic cups again next season because we finish something like 8th. Personally, I think that would set this plan back. That will put huge pressure on Ange.

Being in Europe is the minimum for him IMO

 

[Bedfordspurs]

What I find so interesting about this debate is that we often hear that Ange hasn't got the players for his system yet. He apparently needs time.

Poch 4231: Venom; Porro, Romero, VDV, Udogie; Bents, Biss; Son, Madds, Kulu; Solanke (or use Sarr, Johnson)
Conte 343: Venom; Romero, Dragu, VDV; Porro, Bents, Biss, Udoigie; Johnson, Solanke, Sonny
Conte 352 (Serie A): Venom; Romero, Dragu, VDV; Porro, Madds, Biss, Kulu, Udoigie; Solanke, Sonny
Jose 433: Venom; Porro, Romero, VDV, Udogie; Sarr, Bents, Biss; Sonny, Solanke, Johnson

I think you all know where I'm going with this. Everything we learned from our old managers tactical systems would work better with this current squad, with the exception of Poch's 16/17 team. Whether it's counter attacking from Conte, or a deeper lying defence from Jose with a midfield shielder or we go back to the high press Poch system, they all look like they should work. It's a much deeper squad than Poch had as well.

I still cannot fathom why Ange's system isn't working with this squad. He has access to all of these tactical systems, or components of them, but is steadfast that his system is the way to go. His choices on full-backs, numbers 6's and having wide forwards is a deliberate choice and arguably it's not working at the moment.

You have son in all those sides and he has got progressively worse for varying reasons
There isnt a genuine DM in any of those line ups
And if we had the injuries we have now under conte or Jose you wouldn’t hear the end of it
Don’t forget contes rant was when we could have gone third

 

[Muttley]

You have son in all those sides and he has got progressively worse for varying reasons
There isnt a genuine DM in any of those line ups
And if we had the injuries we have now under conte or Jose you wouldn’t hear the end of it
Don’t forget contes rant was when we could have gone third

I'm not advocating for a moment I want Jose or Conte, just bringing a few of their tactics to the table. Conte believed he couldn't bring his Inter Milan 3-5-2 to the PL because he didn't have a Barella and Eriksen to play with a Brozovic. He definitely had as good as Dybala and Lukaku in Sonny and Kane. Probably better. So he frustrated us all with that 3-4-3 and we never won a midfield, even though we won games. At least Conte's system had an identity. Ange's one doesn't yet.

You are right with Sonny of course. He's on a decline.

I'm not sure we've been aligned on number 6 or DM though. I'm in the camp that if Ange really wanted Bissouma or Bentancur to sit deeper and anchor our midfield then both players could do it. In fact, either could be fantastic there if Ange nurtured these guys to play that way. That's knowing it may not be their most natural position in an ideal world. Ange compounds the problem as he plays two 8's and these guys don't find themselves in number 6 positions when we don't have the ball. It's more about tactics for me than personnel.

 

[Kandi1977]

I voted in, here's why.

Short term.
Injuries. Yeah I know, every team has injuries.
But we have one fit member of our first choice defence.
Injuries are also impacting on our rotation so kulu, Porro and Udogie are getting run into the ground.

Medium term.
We have a considerable amount of youngsters, all with very high potential.

Also look at our peers (the real one's, not the joke doped one's) villa and Saudi Sportswashing Machine.
Both are further into the project than we are and are going through exactly the same growing pains we are.
Villa are struggling with CL and Saudi Sportswashing Machine aren't even Europe have spent money, have players and a manager that I keep hearing are great. They're below us in the table ffs.

Long term.
Who is there out there?
Potter, failed at Chelsea, ah but Chelsea are a basket case. Poch did alright and this new guy doing great. Potter did well at Brighton, yes he did, but Brighton haven't missed a beat since he left.
Maybe it wasn't Potter.

Iraola? Doing OK Bournemouth, if we are questioning ange and his background then are we really going to go with a guy that has managed larnaca and mirandes? Seriously!

The Ipswich manager.
Two stints as u18 coach and Ipswich, fudge me. I wrote this off as more GB BS but others are falling in with it. Really, I mean really!

Emery, three EL trophies and a failure at arsenal, howe, supposedly a fantastic manager, neither pulling up trees at the moment. But I don't hear calls for their heads.

So let's be serious, look at who we are comparing ourselves with,
City. So far above us on every level it's laughable, and there is not thing we can do about it.

Liverpool. A new manager that inherited s well oiled and funded machine. Has benefited from the collapse at city this season. Klopp must be kicking himself.

Arsenal. Doing all the stuff on the pitch we don't want to do. Dark arts, defensive football, supporting rapists, and so much further into their project and still can't get over the line.

Chelsea. I had my doubts at the stories of their imminent downfall. The roosterroaches of football, they will always find a way to survive and thrive, no matter how much brick it takes.

Man utd. The biggest club in the country, probably the biggest or second biggest in the world. Bin fire, despite all the money, fame, dodgy decisions and other stuff on the pitch we are actually doing OK in comparison.
But we should not be measuring ourselves against these clubs.
We are not in that group, we aspire to be, but that is not going to happen quickly because there are others who are also trying to get there.

Lastly, thank fudge say you, we have IMHO two maybe thrre players who are not playing to the system, senior players who are doing their own thing on the ball.
This kind of behaviour needs to be weeded out and again that is not going to happen overnight, not when we are still building.

I personally don't think we should even entertain a new man until we are out of the cups next season.

This, this and this!

 

[Kandi1977]

What I find so interesting about this debate is that we often hear that Ange hasn't got the players for his system yet. He apparently needs time.

Poch 4231: Venom; Porro, Romero, VDV, Udogie; Bents, Biss; Son, Madds, Kulu; Solanke (or use Sarr, Johnson)
Conte 343: Venom; Romero, Dragu, VDV; Porro, Bents, Biss, Udoigie; Johnson, Solanke, Sonny
Conte 352 (Serie A): Venom; Romero, Dragu, VDV; Porro, Madds, Biss, Kulu, Udoigie; Solanke, Sonny
Jose 433: Venom; Porro, Romero, VDV, Udogie; Sarr, Bents, Biss; Sonny, Solanke, Johnson

I think you all know where I'm going with this. Everything we learned from our old managers tactical systems would work better with this current squad, with the exception of Poch's 16/17 team. Whether it's counter attacking from Conte, or a deeper lying defence from Jose with a midfield shielder or we go back to the high press Poch system, they all look like they should work. It's a much deeper squad than Poch had as well.

I still cannot fathom why Ange's system isn't working with this squad. He has access to all of these tactical systems, or components of them, but is steadfast that his system is the way to go. His choices on full-backs, numbers 6's and having wide forwards is a deliberate choice and arguably it's not working at the moment.

You state this as it is facts, although it's as hypothetical as it can be. Get a grip man!

 

[Gazza]

As has been said, Ange has to be given time. If he is backed. We can't keep knee jerking and binning off managers. We all knew that this re-build would be painful, and here is the pain. Ange needs to learn and grow and improve as does the squad. We will be a better club if the powers that be trust the process and keep their nerve.

You normally get a manager that you want to stick with who has shown promise not stubborn inflexibility and lack of attention in addressing vulnerabilities… it’s going to be a year and a half and we are no better off than when he started making the same bloody mistakes.

I’m all for passion and a project but it’s got to be with a manager who has more about him that the fat badger

 

[Gazza]

You state this as it is facts, although it's as hypothetical as it can be. Get a grip man!

It’s a debate. Surely you can see what he is alluding to. Same cannot get a consistent tune out of these players. It’s really black and white.

 

[Muttley]

You state this as it is facts, although it's as hypothetical as it can be. Get a grip man!

It’s a debate. Surely you can see what he is alluding to. Same cannot get a consistent tune out of these players. It’s really black and white.

For me, it's more trends than facts and even then there is some subjectivity. I'm not saying I have the answers, but I am left scratching my head that we're 18 months in and the new tactical system has some vulnerabilities. It is obviously predicated on playing the "Spurs way", whatever that means in 2024.

What I do believe is that Jose, Nuno and Conte had their tactical systems fail because they didn't have a good enough 1st team or squad depth. Poch had the good enough 1st team, at least for a while. Ange has a very good mixture of both.

 

[SpurMeUp]

You normally get a manager that you want to stick with who has shown promise not stubborn inflexibility and lack of attention in addressing vulnerabilities… it’s going to be a year and a half and we are no better off than when he started making the same bloody mistakes.

I’m all for passion and a project but it’s got to be with a manager who has more about him that the fat badger

How much of this post checks out?

Probably only the fat bit. Isn’t a badger on brand?

When Poch was sacked, what was he doing? Switching up his team shape and selection desperately trying to get the right chemistry. Thing was the team he stared the season with was the best side. They weren’t winning off the bat, but Poch would have done well to ignore the noise from chump fans, and stick to his vision. Develop a settled side and refining them. Having a clear vision isn’t a draw back. It is having direction and knowing what needs to be improved. As for vulnerability, how are our conceded goals stats? Where would we be in the table if only looking at goal difference?

 

[Gutter Boy]

I wonder how much Ange's autism is becoming a factor in matters? While the hyperfocus is obviously a positive, the lack of flexibility and poor personal connections are perhaps starting the weigh against him?

 

[Muttley]

I wonder how much Ange's autism is becoming a factor in matters? While the hyperfocus is obviously a positive, the lack of flexibility and poor personal connections are perhaps starting the weigh against him?

I've never seen any reference to this before. Is he diagnosed autistic or is this just theories from observers about his behaviours?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I wonder how much Ange's autism is becoming a factor in matters? While the hyperfocus is obviously a positive, the lack of flexibility and poor personal connections are perhaps starting the weigh against him?

Jesus (and any other religious people) wept man
Have you got just made this up?

 

[Gutter Boy]

I've never seen any reference to this before. Is he diagnosed autistic or is this just theories from observers about his behaviours?

There were a few comments about it from discarded players up in Scotland and i think it was speculated about quite widely by Celtic fans.

But i also saw immediate signs the first time i ever saw him speak. Just the no eye contact and the eating alone thing are absolutely textbook. He has a bit of the gait too.

 

[veryoldspur]

Just joined, so scrolling through the posts top to bottom. I have been attending games since 1971, held a season ticket for 20 years, but now live along way away. That said I still manage to do half a dozen games a season, although not enjoying football under our present manager, so only done one game this season.

Sorry guys I'm voting out. Whilst I appreciate we have many injuries and we didn't buy well in the summer, I honestly believe Ange is out of his depth, stubborn, arrogant, and isn't pragmatic. Yep, the fault really lies at the very top, but as long as I have a hole in my backside we won't win a thing under this manager. I am convinced the players don't believe in his system, and it has got to the point I can't even bear to watch his interviews anymore. We are presently 11th coming up to Christmas, and other managers have been sacked for better records than this man

 

[Bedfordspurs]

There were a few comments about it from discarded players up in Scotland and i think it was speculated about quite widely by Celtic fans.

But i also saw immediate signs the first time i ever saw him speak. Just the no eye contact and the eating alone thing are absolutely textbook. He has a bit of the gait too.

fudge me
This is a new level