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What was the trigger in our downward trend?

SissokoWasGood (BoL) said:
Also agree with your last paragraph by the way. I’m not sure the fans on the whole ever got too big, rather just wanted to continue to see progress. But I completely see where you’re coming from.

One other thing on Ange, we truly don’t know whether he would have done well enough in the league this season. But I would have been interested to see his communication and motivation applied to this season as a new context. Because it was clear from the doc the club put out that the ‘theme’ of last season was that we have all stuck together, and we are going to be winners at the end of it. You are going to get your faces on the walls of the stadium to live on forevermore, and you’re going to send Sonny on his way with the trophy he more than deserves. He clearly repeated that message over and over again so much that it stuck, and the players believed it.

Season 3 would have had a different message. Something along the lines of ‘now you’re winners, you need to push on, the club is different now to what it was and you made it happen, get more of that success’. My biggest concern is seeing how the league shook out in terms of direct play and duels whether the profile Ange likes in players would have been ideally suited, and whether he would have struggled for that reason. Because he’s prided himself on always learning new things and taking in new perspectives, but clearly absolutely abhors the long throw. So would he just have a mental block that would not let him fully adapt as needed? But otherwise, all else being equal I would have loved to see him create different messaging for season 3, and build on winning something.
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One bit that really stuck out to me on this disconnect between board and players was through Richarlison.

He made a post on social media where he pointed out that as soon as Brennan Johnson was sold, there was a picture of either him with the trophy or perhaps just celebrating at the end of the final, but when he left, someone took it down and replaced it.

Regardless of what people think of BJ, Ange, anything really… why does that need to happen? It’s the ‘small’ things like that which I think really get noticed by players. It’s just a really, really odd decision to me.
 
Rafa87 said:
One bit that really stuck out to me on this disconnect between board and players was through Richarlison.

He made a post on social media where he pointed out that as soon as Brennan Johnson was sold, there was a picture of either him with the trophy or perhaps just celebrating at the end of the final, but when he left, someone took it down and replaced it.

Regardless of what people think of BJ, Ange, anything really… why does that need to happen? It’s the ‘small’ things like that which I think really get noticed by players. It’s just a really, really odd decision to me.
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Yeah that seemed really odd to me. I mean not only was he our highest goal scorer last season but he scored the goal to win us the Europa League (and if Brennan says he had the last touch that’s good enough for me!). Even if he leaves he is a significant part of our history so why remove him from the internal mural display? It’s disrespectful at best and I could see why other players would feel aggrieved on his behalf.
 
Rafa87 said:
One bit that really stuck out to me on this disconnect between board and players was through Richarlison.

He made a post on social media where he pointed out that as soon as Brennan Johnson was sold, there was a picture of either him with the trophy or perhaps just celebrating at the end of the final, but when he left, someone took it down and replaced it.

Regardless of what people think of BJ, Ange, anything really… why does that need to happen? It’s the ‘small’ things like that which I think really get noticed by players. It’s just a really, really odd decision to me.
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Yes exactly! It felt like a completely odd decision. And the club knew full well that last season was about getting the players on the walls to live on in history. They knew that was the messaging. I appreciate that Brennan one was a huge picture and if he’s leaving, maybe don’t have him feature so prominently….but also just read the room a bit? It feels tone deaf, like from whoever were the decision makers at the club there was this concerted effort to say last season didn’t matter and that we’re going forward with something new. And supposedly better, even though it wasn’t.
 
Rafa87 said:
One bit that really stuck out to me on this disconnect between board and players was through Richarlison.

He made a post on social media where he pointed out that as soon as Brennan Johnson was sold, there was a picture of either him with the trophy or perhaps just celebrating at the end of the final, but when he left, someone took it down and replaced it.

Regardless of what people think of BJ, Ange, anything really… why does that need to happen? It’s the ‘small’ things like that which I think really get noticed by players. It’s just a really, really odd decision to me.
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It was pathetic. Absolutely pathetic. I heard about it at the time and was speechless, in fact, I didn't want to believe it!
 
Rafa87 said:
One bit that really stuck out to me on this disconnect between board and players was through Richarlison.

He made a post on social media where he pointed out that as soon as Brennan Johnson was sold, there was a picture of either him with the trophy or perhaps just celebrating at the end of the final, but when he left, someone took it down and replaced it.

Regardless of what people think of BJ, Ange, anything really… why does that need to happen? It’s the ‘small’ things like that which I think really get noticed by players. It’s just a really, really odd decision to me.
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Damn. I no longer recognise the club! What beef did someone have with BJ?
 
Rafa87 said:
One bit that really stuck out to me on this disconnect between board and players was through Richarlison.

He made a post on social media where he pointed out that as soon as Brennan Johnson was sold, there was a picture of either him with the trophy or perhaps just celebrating at the end of the final, but when he left, someone took it down and replaced it.

Regardless of what people think of BJ, Ange, anything really… why does that need to happen? It’s the ‘small’ things like that which I think really get noticed by players. It’s just a really, really odd decision to me.
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Our fans lost their brick over a paper cup…

That’s why stuff like that is done.
 
For me the trigger came in Poch's last season after the Champions League final. I think we should have given him the opportunity to rebuild the squad after that rather than give it to a past it Mou.

Since then every manager bears some responsibility for what's happened after. Mourinho for losing his touch and being a bit of a cnut, Conte for giving up on us once he realised we weren't winners like he's used to. Ange for not coaching a team to defend properly for 2 seasons. Hell, we got away with it in Europe but it was always going to bite us on the a*se in the PL. Thomas Frank because after a promising start I'm not sure what happened to his coaching and his inability to motivate the players to be better than the sum of their parts.

Oh and special mention to the medical and fitness teams for the horrendous injury lists over the last 3 seasons that has crippled us and robbed us of our best players.
 
billyiddo said:
Absolutely 💯 this 👆👆👆
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Obviously I disagree, but I think there’s something interesting in the fact that it was the two teams playing today.

Both teams sacked their managers when the squad was behind them. And both are going into a relegation battle after the final international break. I think if we’re talking the downfall from where we could have been, it’s still not properly backing Poch. If we’re talking how we ended up getting to this level, with the squad completely lacking in confidence, unity, and a willingness to work for each other, I think that’s sacking Ange.

And I think it’s the same with Forest. It’s the intangible stuff, the belief in the project and the way of working, and it’s the more tangible stuff, asking a squad to play 3 different ways through the course of a season and expecting there to be any clarity or consistency in the output.

We have no culture, no confidence, no cohesion. No unity. The moment something goes against us we crumble. And that very much is not an Ange hangover, because the squad always had belief under him. That is very much a this season thing. And I think it’s because we went from having a squad with a clear purpose, a reason for being at Spurs, and an idea in how they played, to one where barely anyone was bought in to what Frank wanted. And so the moment results turned, it all fell away.

We’ve seen too many ‘we’ve all had a number of meetings amongst ourselves and know what we need to do better’ interviews now. We can start games ok. We can even chase games when the pressure is off, without ever really truly creating any danger. The moment something goes against us, this squad falls apart. I don’t think that’s a lowering of standards, I think it’s a complete lack of unity and willingness to fight for each other and this club. There is absolutely no confidence in any of the players, and no real leadership. The dynamics are just fudged. I think it’s beyond manager’s competence, and more about what you put a squad of humans through when you rip up one idea and start again with another, when the previous idea was a big part of the reason for the unity and cohesion. And that’s why I think the reason for ours and Forest’s struggles are pretty similar.
 
SissokoWasGood (BoL) said:
Obviously I disagree, but I think there’s something interesting in the fact that it was the two teams playing today.

Both teams sacked their managers when the squad was behind them. And both are going into a relegation battle after the final international break. I think if we’re talking the downfall from where we could have been, it’s still not properly backing Poch. If we’re talking how we ended up getting to this level, with the squad completely lacking in confidence, unity, and a willingness to work for each other, I think that’s sacking Ange.

And I think it’s the same with Forest. It’s the intangible stuff, the belief in the project and the way of working, and it’s the more tangible stuff, asking a squad to play 3 different ways through the course of a season and expecting there to be any clarity or consistency in the output.

We have no culture, no confidence, no cohesion. No unity. The moment something goes against us we crumble. And that very much is not an Ange hangover, because the squad always had belief under him. That is very much a this season thing. And I think it’s because we went from having a squad with a clear purpose, a reason for being at Spurs, and an idea in how they played, to one where barely anyone was bought in to what Frank wanted. And so the moment results turned, it all fell away.

We’ve seen too many ‘we’ve all had a number of meetings amongst ourselves and know what we need to do better’ interviews now. We can start games ok. We can even chase games when the pressure is off, without ever really truly creating any danger. The moment something goes against us, this squad falls apart. I don’t think that’s a lowering of standards, I think it’s a complete lack of unity and willingness to fight for each other and this club. There is absolutely no confidence in any of the players, and no real leadership. The dynamics are just fudged. I think it’s beyond manager’s competence, and more about what you put a squad of humans through when you rip up one idea and start again with another, when the previous idea was a big part of the reason for the unity and cohesion. And that’s why I think the reason for ours and Forest’s struggles are pretty similar.
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They may have had belief but were still brick. If we have belief and a better coached team has belief we're still on the losing side of that bet.

Life, sport everything is about trends. Our trend shows that over the last two years we are a team that loses in the league, loses at home, can't score etc etc. We have one way or another, normalised being brick in the league. Belief needs to be backed up by results, overwise it's just delustion. Delusiion that we're too good to go down, that'll it'll be alright etc.

I look at Forests team and I look at ours and there is way too many of their players that would start for us for my liking.
 
fernadez said:
They may have had belief but were still brick. If we have belief and a better coached team has belief we're still on the losing side of that bet.

Life, sport everything is about trends. Our trend shows that over the last two years we are a team that loses in the league, loses at home, can't score etc etc. We have one way or another, normalised being brick in the league. Belief needs to be backed up by results, overwise it's just delustion. Delusiion that we're too good to go down, that'll it'll be alright etc.

I look at Forests team and I look at ours and there is way too many of their players that would start for us for my liking.
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I just don’t agree. When we needed to win last year to secure our safety, we basically did. Then we had the opportunity this year for a fresh start. Then we started the season pretty well. Why, if it is all a hangover from last season, did we actually start quite well?
 
SissokoWasGood (BoL) said:
I just don’t agree. When we needed to win last year to secure our safety, we basically did. Then we had the opportunity this year for a fresh start. Then we started the season pretty well. Why, if it is all a hangover from last season, did we actually start quite well?
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It’s a fair argument but we were consistently dogbrick at home and even some of the away wins defied the underlying numbers. A collapse in that away form was always coming while the habit of losing at home, started under Ange, continued unabated.
 
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