Bedfordspurs
Joe Kinnear
They spent a fortune and look worse
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Ange in or out?
- Thread starter Yiddo
- Start date
Baleforce
Vinnie Samways
Yeah Reggie, if he wasn't going to use him he could have registered someone else, he let Royal and PEH go, Skipp too.
He cut the squad down last year, he had options, good ones.
Baleforce
Vinnie Samways
He shafted himself, he didn't realise that the cups were worthless and he had to prioritise league games.
Bedfordspurs
Joe Kinnear
Register who?
There wasn’t another senior player to register. He got register by default because no one else wanted him
I agree he let the others go. They were the right calls long term but they have massively backfired shot term
Baleforce
Vinnie Samways
Kulu covers two of those, Bergvall can be whatever he wants to be.
He's called Sergio Reguilon and he's been solid in his 3 games this season.
Kulu/Oddobert/Werner/Moore/Porro/Ajayi.
Half the squad has been run into the ground, the other half has barely had a kick.
Baleforce
Vinnie Samways
He should have kept at least one of those 3, he certainly should have kept Royal, a guy that can actually defend.
Bedfordspurs
Joe Kinnear
He hasn’t excelled at defending in Italy
A defensive league
Baleforce
Vinnie Samways
he's been fine, much better than the car crash we have been serving up every game
Silly McSilly Face
Wilson Palacios
I don't think Kulu is particularly creative. Not in the Maddison sense anyway. Kulu is creative with little one-twos and sliding a pass in, but don't think he (or anyone else in the squad) has the switch of play/pace in their locker that Maddison has when he's on song.
Old man badge accepted...argued against myself? Not at all. I am saying that the standard of football was far worse in those years. I think a lot of people banging on about 'worst' are stat driven. I get it. There is no defending the horrific amount of losses. But I have enjoyed the football this season a lot more than the seasons I noted.
It's on paper comparable to our worst ever seasons, agreed? From there my take is that pound for pound it's the worst season as there is such a disparity between the quality of the team and the results of our performance (position in table) - poor performances & results are expected with a poor team, as with our other comparable seasons, that's why for me there's no hyperbole in what was said.
Inagree and
Missed this post and there's a lot here, so bear with me.
Vicario and Raya have strengths and weaknesses, but I would say that in terms of the confidence he instills in his defence, Raya is the calmer and less likely to flap. Perception only, I watch far more Spurs than Goons, obviously.
The rest of your X is better than Y is kinda moot as there's no direct comparison (todibo plays in a far different league and You don't give a player for Bergvall to be compared with).
I would encourage you to re read my posts as you will not find me suggesting we should have spent £300m during COVID, sarcasm noted and ignored though.
What I did infer in less words than now, is that if you hire Mourinho then you are appointing one of the best in the game and if he asks you for a player then it's probably a good idea to get that player, not sign a cheaper alternative as happened with Gedson Vs Fernandes. man Utd paid a structured £67m over 5 years based on achievement for Bruno Fernandes which is exactly the kind of deal that Levy is capable of. We got that so, so wrong, and that was the way a lot across the last ten years.
Emerson Royal being more expensive, is factually flawed as city paid £45m for Kyle Walker and Trippier cost Atletico £20m. That's what they were worth, and Emerson Royal cost £20m. Price aside though he was far worse than either of the former players of ours and I would say probably less suited even than someone like Walker-Peters to our club. My point I was making was that the standard of our squad dropped off drastically, not that we were not spending.
What would my plan be?
right now I would review the performance of Munn, Lange, and Ange at the end of the season. I would ignore the noise from the fan base and be objective. Would any of them survive? I'm not in possession of the metrics they were hired on so it's hard to say exactly, but it's not difficult to see that Ange is going to have a tough time justifying what has happened.
If the sole metric was win a trophy and we win the Europa League then he stays, but his new metric is win 8 of the first 10 games of the new season or cheerio.
I would also talk to the senior players and get a feeling for how they felt about the approach, the way they were used and their intentions. Romero has always had a tingle if the mercenary about him but Madison, Kulu, Son and Bentancur will all have their views and know how the rest of the squad perceive the manager.
For Lange and Munn different benchmarks apply. Have we recruited well? Yes if you look at the long term value of the players signed. Again though if the metric is signing young players who can make an impact now, then we have to say that it's a mixed bag.
Bergvall is the sole player who has actually established himself as a first team player, the others (Gray, Odobert, Dragusin, Tel) I would say have yet to become first team picks, although I thought Tel was our best player last night, so bodes well.
All this above is why when I'm asked if I back the manager, it's not an unqualified yes or an unqualified no. There's no other industry like sport, emotion plays such a part and the entitlement of fans to want to have a say in something that the vast majority don't financially contribute to is unique more or less.
Were I in possession of all the facts I would make a decision on Ange, but without all the info I don't feel I can be objective, so I go with my heart. And my heart says there's still something in there. Don't know why but it doesm I'm in an increasingly small minority but I want him to succeed, and I don't want to have to watch a reset being fumbled like the last time we did this 24 months ago.
I think that is my longest ever GG post and I once wrote a song over in random called I'm a randomite which was 20 verses long.
Congrats on being pulled into the debate, I'll answer in two parts, first to your comments, then to the plan piece
- We can agree to disagree on Raya (as others have a similar opinion to you), I don't think he's much more than decent, or much better than their previous keeper (Vic is a significant upgrade on end of career Hugo or Forster)
- Jose (he's a clam) is the one manager I feel has a caveat, I think the expectation was to give him money but Covid happened.
- We have made no compromise buys in recent years, where we paid the asking price (that was my comment about Spurs eras), Solanke, Johnson, Grey, Porro, Richi are all paying market price, not cheap alternatives
- Walker and Trippier cost us $9M total, like Kane cost us nothing, like Bergvall will be a future joke. The point I was making is we keep spending more, is it the right spend? is a player at the developed level going to chose us? btw, we paid 45M for Porro. I think purely going well we didn't replace Kane with a 100M player is a bit silly, there are no other Kane's, and if they were, we probably wouldn't be on their list, we have to sometimes gamble younger.
To the plan, my view would be
- Fire Ange, fire him now, data, eye test, nothing indicates his system works, we might get dead cat bounce, we will get better chance to evaluate players before summer.
- Full review of medical team process, either they suck, Ange's system caused injuries or not, if it did, was anything communicated? was it ignored?
- Decision on Munn based on how much he has backed Ange in last 6 months, if as I suspect he pushed to stick vs. change between Nov - Jan, he's accountable.
- Squad review, some easy decisions, some harder ones
Most importantly
- Build a plan with milestones/outcomes, e.g. if we decide to bring in Vuskovich, Donley, Moore into team next year, what is a realistic expectation for the club? any European football?
- What is the investment strategy, e.g. 1 >60M player a season? (how high can we go), what is expected refresh on squad?
- What is plan to win trophy by when? to be in CL by when? what is required, who is accountable?
The way i understand Angeball is that it's the system/tactics that creates the chances not an individual playmaker, it's probably why Maddison looks a shadow of his early days here as he's become more of a cog than the steering wheel as the twctics have bedded in. So looking at it as there is no Maddison cover in terms of playmaker abilities is like asking why there is no DM - when the answer is simply we don't play with one. It's probably why we were not linked to any DMs and why we were linked to Gallagher and not any playmakers. That said it could be argued that Bergvall possesses some of those qualities.
FB cover Spence + Reggie - one good one make do
Kulu covers wide right as does Odobert now that Tel has been brought in to replace Werner as LWF cover.
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Muttley
Gudni Bergsson
This confuses me. Why would Munn and his team communicate private information on medical matters publicly? We know the medical team and process has been reviewed and we saw the job reqs on LinkedIn. Right now we look like we're in great shape with the current fitness of the squad. Perhaps at some point we'll give some credit to the overhaul that Munn has had oversight on. If he has achieved this in only the second year of his tenure than that's good by me.
I'm hoping that fans eventually realise that shooting from the hip is not the right way for the new Spurs executive leadership team to manage the club. Munn has said publicly that his leadership style is to create the conditions for his direct report to perform uninhibited. That has happened with Ange now and he hasn't stepped up so the decision can be made at the end of the season.
We just need to wait now until the financial forecast can be done. With CL football, it is drastically different than without. Our finishing league position will cost us something like £40m of what would have been our transfer kitty. I'm not expecting a huge net transfer budget this summer and rightly so because of Ange's poor performance. We need to sell to buy and the next manager will need to work with a young squad with huge potential rather than just throw more money at it.
Re medical team, I meant did the medical team communicate to the manager/club that players were in red zone and decisions were made to still play/ignore? were the setbacks unusual, why the commentary by players re what they got from national team. To be clear, no expectation on public announcements.
Re Munn, hard disagree mate, you don't wait for the end of a year to see if you achieved your goals. This isn't about being perfect, not making mistakes, it's how quickly you understand the error and take action to correct. The club could have fired Ange quite reasonably in November and brought in a new manager, much higher chance of saving season, getting Europe via league vs. hoping for EL win. So the question (and no, I have no insight here), is in monthly reviews, when the question came up of stick or change, what did Munn advocate for? if he chose to stick with Ange, it's 100% on him, and that's how it's supposed to work at this level.
The next manage in my opinion gets a free fudging ride, he'll likely get some money, he'll have a Gray, Bergvall, Spence, Wilson, probably Tel all one year better off, Vuskovich, Yang, Donley as options and money from sales of Richi, Bissouma, and maybe Romero to spend. And if gets that team to 7th, he's be seen as achieving based on this season. CL money would just be a bonus.
My opinion is the club should be very open, we need to rebuild our regular top 6 credentials, and goal in next season is "any European" football at end of it, of course if opportunity presents itself and we do better than expected, we should.
Robspur12
Jimmy Neighbour
I would have thought it’s far too early to pat anyone on the back yet re the success of the medical staff overhaul. Plus I’m sure we have had similar “overhauls” in the past.
thfcsteff
Tony Galvin
Statistically? There is simply no argument and I wouldn't try to pick one ;-)...where we disagree (and will continue to) is in the 'performance vs quality of team' metric you stated. Back on January 25th, our first choice back five of Vicario, Udogie, VdV, Romero, and Porro had only started 16 Premier League games together; since matey arrived!!!!! Of those, we apparently won 12, drew 1, and lost three. It makes a difference when you lose a GK and two starting CBs for ages.
Admittedly you can add a few more matches to that number, but I think you at least see the overall point. You want to evaluate quality of squad versus results when he has simply not had many of those players available for large chunks of time, and has been forced to use marginalised players or very young ones. Despite that, I firmly believe many of our performances have been much better than the absolute shhit I endured during those seasons marked. Anyway, we agree to disagree my friend...
thfcsteff
Tony Galvin
Bergvall has been brilliant; his ascension when at one point he looked so far from ready is miraculous. We can be grateful he had to have his development tested, here's hooping second season syndrome doesn't whack him.
Ange really wanted Gallagher for sure, linked with him for two windows. We didn't get it done. I wonder why.
We were absolutely linked with another playmaker in Eze, indeed the deal was there to be done before the Euros but we didn't go for the terms/make it happen. There were others linked but those were less concrete for sure.
I find it amusing that so many are citing Reggie as 'proper back up' when Conte binned him off and we tried to move him on several times.
Kulu covers wide right but he is not a natural wide-right system player. Odobert was certainly unfortunate; we will never know if he'd have hit a greater stride but for injury.
Spence has been excellent, however he needed work and development after the number Conte did on him. That he can fill at LB is miraculous, but really, the way we play requires a left-footer on the left of both defensive positions due to the speed of transitions.
I think Maddison has looked less because he has spent vast times of his career with us having to operate in a non-optimal role, because he has been carrying knock after knock, and he also gets sucked into dropping in to pick the ball up deep and try to prompt play-making (something which has happened a lot when Romero is unavailable as he dictates that role from the back.
mudshark
Justin Edinburgh
For me, this buys too heavily into his excuse-filled narrative. He talks about the injuries and everything else as if they're things that just happened, like the weather, free of context, whereas my perspective is that they were mostly a direct consequence of his "style" (or his "philosophy", if you prefer) and his inability or unwillingness to adapt to the conditions he faced unless and until he was absolutely forced to by dint of having his face repeatedly held in the flushing toilet bowl of his own disastrous "tactics". Just my opinion.
metalgear
Andy Thompson
I am convinced Ange is poor at spotting and managing talent.
Chelsea didn't want the PR of selling home grown player who captained the side to Spurs
Just like us with Kane, better to sell abroad.