Roberto De Zerbi *OFFICIAL*

[glorygloryeze]

I mean the season is literally a couple of weeks old, I am sure they can live without a week off given the atrocious start

I'm sure they can live without lots of things. But we have 3 weeks between games. One week off to maybe have their minds reset (and even maybe some get back to fitness etc) isn't the worst thing i've seen Spurs so over this last decade

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

I'm sure they can live without lots of things. But we have 3 weeks between games. One week off to maybe have their minds reset (and even maybe some get back to fitness etc) isn't the worst thing i've seen Spurs so over this last decade

Given the moaning about lack of time, ideas getting home and prep in the players fitness, I would say it comes over contrary to his whinging

 

[glorygloryeze]

Given the moaning about lack of time, ideas getting home and prep in the players fitness, I would say it comes over contrary to his whinging

It will do if he still whinges about it when the league restarts.

Until then as i say we have the longest international break we've ever had. There's LOADS of time for both intense training AND a rest for a mental reset etc

 

[clownfoot]

It's not so much his attitude that has me worried than the way he approaches competitive games. We're five games into the season and he still appears to be looking for his best line-up. That's (partly) what pre-season games are for. More importantly, he's got a decision to make regarding Solanke.

One thing annoying me is that he hasn’t played Tonali and Fernandes together. May be wrong but I think even in preseason games they’d get a half each and not many minutes together? Baffles me that he hasn’t tried it, and I appreciate Bentancur doesn’t deserve to be dropped, but to spend £185m on a midfield pairing and not play them together even when we’re struggling seems odd

 

[glorygloryeze]

One thing annoying me is that he hasn’t played Tonali and Fernandes together. May be wrong but I think even in preseason games they’d get a half each and not many minutes together? Baffles me that he hasn’t tried it, and I appreciate Bentancur doesn’t deserve to be dropped, but to spend £185m on a midfield pairing and not play them together even when we’re struggling seems odd

Hang on, didn't they both start on Saturday? Ditto vs Everton?

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

Hang on, didn't they both start on Saturday? Ditto vs Everton?

He means as a midfield 2 like a double pivot with a 10 in front of them. At the moment they’ve only ever played alongside Bentancur meaning Fernandes has had to play that 10 role which he is not good at.

 

[glorygloryeze]

He means as a midfield 2 like a double pivot with a 10 in front of them. At the moment they’ve only ever played alongside Bentancur meaning Fernandes has had to play that 10 role which he is not good at.

Oh ok, gotcha @clownfoot

 

[Mr Gogolak]

I’m not trying to be a dingdong here I promise. But in terms of your list:

1. DI Zerbi has not proved he is a top manager, and I’m not just talking about here. Potential yes sure, but proven top manager, No.
2. It looks very much like he was in fact given absolute say over transfers. Which he simply hasn’t earned.
3. Fernandes looks like a top player. You can make an argument for Tonali (although he hasn’t performed yet)
4. Yes that’s true, but I’m not sure that’s a flex.
5. We have sold players yes. But I would argue we have sold the wrong players, at least that’s what it looks like so far at least.

But in fairness it is very early days. And that needs to be taken in to account. And all of what I have written above may prove to make me look like a fool when we end up winning the league next year… so here is to me looking foolish … as long as the league that we win is not the Championship

Who's a top manager these days, though? Football has changed so much and it keeps on changing so fast, that it's hard to think of anyone who'd actually fit into that category... Guardiola? Klopp? Maybe Luis Enrique and Ancelotti? Possibly Deschamps and maybe Zidane if you're feeling generous, but who else?

Mourinho was supposed to be finished and he still landed the Real Madrid job. Apart from these, Europe is full of managers who were supposed to be the next big thing and who never passed the test of time: Flick, Tuchel, Löw, Nagelsmann, Amorim...

I'd argue that if you have money to spend, finding a quality sporting director/whatever you want to call it is more important than finding a good manager. Carrick and Solskjaer made great starts to their ManUnited's careers but it didn't get them far.

 

[Raziel]

So instead of admitting you completely mis-attributed something, you instead tell me to 'take it easy'?
No.
You're OK.
You were wrong in that attribution. That's all.

...with regards to the rest of what you wrote, fine. All good. Your opinion. I disagree. FWIW you clearly do not understand the point I was making.

As for your paragraph re: 'the reason...' honestly, it's hard to take it at face value given how definitively you've hung your view on one hook (tactics - they all got it/are getting it wrong? Come on!) when it is clear there were/are several other factors at play.

So respectfully, again, I disagree.

Still think part of your response is emotion mate (and that I get)

FWIW, I went back and read your bits, happy to admit I misunderstood, maybe still don't get your point, e.g for me, Gallagher is just a hustler, type of player that is a pain in the ass to play against regardless of how effective, do I believe he is useful for us now? yes, do I think we should need him? no.

What other factors are at play? Ange is clearly a philosophy/tactic that has been found out at this level (and even then, managed 5th with Spurs in first season), his predecessor managed 4th before imploding. Frank had no functioning tactic unless you considering banging the ball to Kudus and spamming crosses to no one a tactic. RDZ has obvious tactics but they are clearly not the current meta and are not working (yet).

I'll say it again, all three managers (vastly different in general approach), so far are making the same mistake, getting the basics wrong (you don't concede 3 at home and expect to win). And RDZ is feeling quite Ange in the conversation, if we had x player it would work, or if we cut out individual mistakes it would work (ignoring the system leaving you exposed), or if the players gave more (this squad should not need to be at their best to beat that Villa side or Forest)

Now do I believe in momentum (and the belief or lack of that it creates)? absolutely, and that's why I still think the biggest mistake this club ever made was letting Frank last as long as he did, it turned a blip season into a habit, and we still can't break that habit. And maybe your perspective is more "leaders" do, mine would be do the basics, grind some wins, learn what it is to win again, don't aim to fly when you can't walk.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

Who's a top manager these days, though? Football has changed so much and it keeps on changing so fast, that it's hard to think of anyone who'd actually fit into that category... Guardiola? Klopp? Maybe Luis Enrique and Ancelotti? Possibly Deschamps and maybe Zidane if you're feeling generous, but who else?

Mourinho was supposed to be finished and he still landed the Real Madrid job. Apart from these, Europe is full of managers who were supposed to be the next big thing and who never passed the test of time: Flick, Tuchel, Löw, Nagelsmann, Amorim...

I'd argue that if you have money to spend, finding a quality sporting director/whatever you want to call it is more important than finding a good manager. Carrick and Solskjaer made great starts to their ManUnited's careers but it didn't get them far.

Inzaghi, Emery, Scaloni would be up there, Gasperini is one of the best long term managers playing arguably some of the best football in Europe with a minor side when he was with Atalanta, now at Roma, Valverde has done it at a couple of clubs, Simeone is a top manager, I hate his football but he is a top manager, De La Fuente has galvanised Spain again.

Flick is a very very good manager, Barcelona look unreal this season (yeh I know its Barce).

 

[DTA]

Who's a top manager these days, though? Football has changed so much and it keeps on changing so fast, that it's hard to think of anyone who'd actually fit into that category... Guardiola? Klopp? Maybe Luis Enrique and Ancelotti? Possibly Deschamps and maybe Zidane if you're feeling generous, but who else?

Mourinho was supposed to be finished and he still landed the Real Madrid job. Apart from these, Europe is full of managers who were supposed to be the next big thing and who never passed the test of time: Flick, Tuchel, Löw, Nagelsmann, Amorim...

I'd argue that if you have money to spend, finding a quality sporting director/whatever you want to call it is more important than finding a good manager. Carrick and Solskjaer made great starts to their ManUnited's careers but it didn't get them far.

Well maybe we should have gone a top sporting director instead?

As for who is a top manager yes Klopp Anchellotti enrique, Emery all of those have won multiple Trophies and would have been more sensible to back to the tune of 400m.

But I come back to the point that I made before a ball was kicked this season, too much churn never works out (at least I can’t think of a time that it did (I may be wrong). And the absolute cúnts in charge should have know that.

It would have been better to stick with what we had and added 2 beasts to the areas of most need. While giving the younger players time and opportunities to develop.

The team that finished last season had fight at least. And would have been bonded by us staying up We have lost that in my opinion. Spend 400m and added what exactly? We have a better midfield but have spent through the nose to get it? And Bents is still our best midfielder on form at least. We have regressed defensively and somehow look worse in front of goal as well.

It’s a Fücking shambles.

I don’t even blame RDZ if they are offering him a bank cheque book (without him earning it) of course he is going to take it.

it’s those incompetent backstabbing cúnts at the top that done this to us.

 

[Raziel]

Well maybe we should have gone a top sporting director instead?

As for who is a top manager yes Klopp Anchellotti enrique, Emery all of those have won multiple Trophies and would have been more sensible to back to the tune of 400m.

But I come back to the point that I made before a ball was kicked this season, too much churn never works out (at least I can’t think of a time that it did (I may be wrong). And the absolute cúnts in charge should have know that.

It would have been better to stick with what we had and added 2 beasts to the areas of most need. While giving the younger players time and opportunities to develop.

The team that finished last season had fight at least. And would have been bonded by us staying up We have lost that in my opinion.

It feels like at least some of it was performative, some combination of showing up the past, and or giving RDZ everything.

100% agree (and said it a few times), by not moving on Palhinha, Spence, Lankshear, Vuskovic, and not buying Robertson, Senesi, Tonali, actually moving on Richi and Solanke, it would have allowed for investment in a #9 and #10 while having less churn and probably same or less money.

Also think RDZ's decision to go full his style despite the WC summer, injuries, etc. instead of building on the gradual transition he had last season is another mistake.

 

[DeanoAustin]

It feels like at least some of it was performative, some combination of showing up the past, and or giving RDZ everything.

100% agree (and said it a few times), by not moving on Palhinha, Spence, Lankshear, Vuskovic, and not buying Robertson, Senesi, Tonali, actually moving on Richi and Solanke, it would have allowed for investment in a #9 and #10 while having less churn and probably same or less money.

Also think RDZ's decision to go full his style despite the WC summer, injuries, etc. instead of building on the gradual transition he had last season is another mistake.

A mistake in terms of short term results or something more long term? The reason I ask is because if you believe it'll work eventually but is contributing to our position after 5 games, I'm willing to accept that. If you think it's going to lead to more long term problems, that's a different conversation and I'd be interested to hear your rationale.

I genuinely do think this is a bedding in period. On Saturday, there were a couple of occasions where you could see players weren't sure where they should be. JPVH bawled someone out of it (maybe Gray or Bergvall) for their positioning on the right wing when he was dribbling out. There was another one where two players, can't remember who, pretty much ran into each other. They're all signs that this is a pretty painful transition but it is a transition rather than a failing system.

 

[Mr Gogolak]

Inzaghi, Emery, Scaloni would be up there, Gasperini is one of the best long term managers playing arguably some of the best football in Europe with a minor side when he was with Atalanta, now at Roma, Valverde has done it at a couple of clubs, Simeone is a top manager, I hate his football but he is a top manager, De La Fuente has galvanised Spain again.

Flick is a very very good manager, Barcelona look unreal this season (yeh I know its Barce).

What I meant is, if I were a club owner, which managers do I rate so highly that I could leave him in charge of the club / back him fully and be confident of getting excellent results for my money - and I do mean 100% certain.

I'm not saying there's no good managers anymore; even people like Tuchel know what they're doing (most of the time). My point is, managers have a very short lifespan at the top. Spaletti was red hot a decade ago, for instance. He's still a good manager but if I gave him a chequebook, I wouldn't know for sure he's going to get me my money's worth of results. Maybe he would, maybe he would't.

De Zerbi falls into that category, I think. He knows what he's doing, a lot of people consider him an very good manager but even if you spend money, there's no guarantee he'll be successful. If you compare the handful of managers who offer that nowadays to what that number was until the late 90s, I think there's definitely a decline. That's because football has become even more competitive, but also because the constant tactical innovations makes it very hard for anyone to stay on top. It's a catch-22 situation: you need to adapt to what others are doing while, at the same time, implementing a very specific style of play.

That why - I think - no manager lasts for long these days.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

What I meant is, if I were a club owner, which managers do I rate so highly that I could leave him in charge of the club / back him fully and be confident of getting excellent results for my money - and I do mean 100% certain.

I'm not saying there's no good managers anymore; even people like Tuchel know what they're doing (most of the time). My point is, managers have a very short lifespan at the top. Spaletti was red hot a decade ago, for instance. He's still a good manager but if I gave him a chequebook, I wouldn't know for sure he's going to get me my money's worth of results. Maybe he would, maybe he would't.

De Zerbi falls into that category, I think. He knows what he's doing, a lot of people consider him an very good manager but even if you spend money, there's no guarantee he'll be successful. If you compare the handful of managers who offer that nowadays to what that number was until the late 90s, I think there's definitely a decline. That's because football has become even more competitive, but also because the constant tactical innovations makes it very hard for anyone to stay on top. It's a catch-22 situation: you need to adapt to what others are doing while, at the same time, implementing a very specific style of play.

That why - I think - no manager lasts for long these days.

Ahhh sorry my apologies, I miss repped your post.

BTW I agree and its a point I have made elsewhere, managers are not the power houses they once were. The days of Clough managing every detail of the club (which was common then) to what we see today is massively different. Clubs rely on too much data and have to make much more nuanced financial decisions than they did.

The average length of a PL manager is around the 450 day mark now, or at least was the last time I saw it highlighted.

 

[Mr Gogolak]

Ahhh sorry my apologies, I miss repped your post.

BTW I agree and its a point I have made elsewhere, managers are not the power houses they once were. The days of Clough managing every detail of the club (which was common then) to what we see today is massively different. Clubs rely on too much data and have to make much more nuanced financial decisions than they did.

The average length of a PL manager is around the 450 day mark now, or at least was the last time I saw it highlighted.

No need to apologise at all! English isn't my first language and even when I try to express a coherent thought, it's often lost in translation!

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

No need to apologise at all! English isn't my first language and even when I try to express a coherent thought, it's often lost in translation!

Na was on me, didn't read the full context.

 

[Raziel]

A mistake in terms of short term results or something more long term? The reason I ask is because if you believe it'll work eventually but is contributing to our position after 5 games, I'm willing to accept that. If you think it's going to lead to more long term problems, that's a different conversation and I'd be interested to hear your rationale.

I genuinely do think this is a bedding in period. On Saturday, there were a couple of occasions where you could see players weren't sure where they should be. JPVH bawled someone out of it (maybe Gray or Bergvall) for their positioning on the right wing when he was dribbling out. There was another one where two players, can't remember who, pretty much ran into each other. They're all signs that this is a pretty painful transition but it is a transition rather than a failing system.

It's more introducing risk (of exactly what is happening). Clearly the club believes RDZ's long term team potential has an upside. For me, it's more a deep understanding that the club has been in a spiral for what is now a 3rd season, while skipping from 17th to 5th sounds great, a more subtle approach might be safer/less likely to fudge up, exactly when you probably need slow and steady more than flashy.

If RDZ fails now, we are deeply fudged, decisions on Romero, Spence, Danso, Vuskovic, Lankshear, realistically Richi are non reversable (and to be fair, I only think 2-3 of those are really questionable, but so are 2-3 of the incoming).

A more stable approach, getting to January in 10th or so, then having the option to go to the well, add/change would have seemed more sensible.

 

[Mikey10]

I’m genuinely worried about the rest of this season, and I’m already fearing that it’s going to be another huge battle to avoid relegation.

We have played a run of five games which were a reasonably kind opening for us and we have amassed 2 points from a possible 15. I’m not sure we’ll have such a favourable set of consecutive matches again this season.

Our schedule so far included a home fixture against a N ewcastle side which lost its manager and a number of its better players over the summer; another home game against an Everton side which has been gutted to the extent that there are only 18 players in the squad; a further match at our stadium against a Villa side that couldn’t previously buy a goal, never mind a win, but managed to smash 3 past us; and a Forest side that are unlikely to trouble the top half of the table, and may well be relegation candidates again.

Looking at our next run of matches, it seems more than possible that we could be going into our 10th game (more than a quarter of the way through the season) on between 5-7 points. Games which once upon a time would have looked like home bankers - e.g. v Coventry in October - are now approached with a vague hope of gaining points more than in expectation.

We look to me like a highly unbalanced squad, short on physicality and even shorter on confidence, with no leaders and a manager, I fear, who is only just beginning to realise how much the PL has changed during his absence.

Oh, and we don’t have a goalscorer.

Can anyone make me feel better?

It’s going to be a long three weeks…

 

[BrentwoodSpur]

My concern is there is a perfect storm brewing. Losing against Villa then going into a 3 week break bottom of the league fuels the narrative. That will continue unopposed because we can’t play until the break is over. Then we play Man U. And as bad as they are, unfortunately I think we’re worse. We lose that and have any result other than a win against Coventry and I fear for the manager. I think he needs to be given time, but I just can’t see how the board will view it