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Thomas Frank - Head Coach

Except football club chairman or whatever VV is don't make public statements unless it's in house puff pieces. So we have no idea if VV is a leader because we don't know what he is doing behind the scenes. Don't know what a VP is expected to do in the states but here they are expected to move the organisation forward or they leave. How do we know VV isn't doing that but we can't see it because we aren't inside THFC.

I guarantee he isn't asking Lange how to run the football club. Edu isn't pulling up trees at Forest so maybe not as good as people think.

IMO a puff-piece is needed, if only to restate what is going on. I appreciate that it won't happen. I think he is absolutely relying on Langhe to direct the football ethos of the club. Edu's talents as a DoF are certainly not iron-clad, however the point I was making was that his relationship with Arteta saw a strong identity there between two men who had played for the club and deeply understood it. That's hard to replicate unless all the conditions are in place. Maybe it works in another way? But maybe it doesn't.
 
As a philosophy and way of being, it eternally works for me. If you want another approach, pray for some Petro-dollared fudgeheads to storm in and sportwash viaus, because as far as I can see (with the passable exception of Liverpool) those teams have swept up for approximately two decades (the only time those clams Leicester did anything BTW was when they firmly bent the rules).

See I'm completely against that approach, I'd renounce my support.

I think we can brickhouse our way to the league and turn a profit, I think its the only way we can do it.
 
FFS if we weren’t in a relegation fight last season then we aren’t now. We are on 27 points atm. 4 wins and a draw from 40 points with 17 games to go. Look things are not great but relegation -not having it.
Where do you see these 4 wins coming from? Im just pinning my hopes on Wet Spam and Burnley not putting a run together. Wolves are done. Pretty much last years scenario all over again.
 
Certainly a question worth asking, but seeing as our CBs are starters for their nations and our FBs internationals too, I'd say there's more to it. The keeper is certainly suspect in several ways. I still think with those two CBs playing the same amount of games last season as this, we'd have had significantly more points, but it is just a theory based on numbers when they were available.
Hard not to feel sorry for Frank re: injuries. They're mounting up. As they do when you have to keep playing the same players. As we've seen in previous seasons when said-injuries were blamed solely on a series of false premises.

Every pro player in England is an international now, I went to a Conference south game last week and Chelmsford City had a player out because he was injured on international duty.
 
Personally my arguments about Frank have mainly been with myself. I like him as a person, want him to succeed. That's in contrast to all of Ange, Conte and Mourinho, who i actively disliked, so had little tolerance for.

But the sample size is big enough now, and there are no green shoots. We arent getting better and there's no sign of what the plan or vision is. I would absolutely have rejoiced if we'd come out tonight, played aggressive pass and move football and blown them away. But ive just finally accepted that that is just never going to happen. He is another Nuno or Potter
I think this is the think right. Its the green shoots. Ange didn't actually need time. He implemented his system effectively from day 1 and hit the PL like a train. The problem was that his methods eventually hit the squad like a train injury wise and he didn't have a plan B for when the PL (relatively quickly) figured out how to beat his plan A. Green shoots did not appear of an adaptation.

All our good managers have made a good initial impact and improved from there. Jol took over from Santini and performances improved straight away.

Redknapp took over and had an immediate impact.

With Poch, his first season was hit and miss but you could see what he was trying to do and things really started to click around about this time with a similar mismatch squad of young players.

I just can't really see where we will go with what Frank is doing. I think this is it, i think what he's done is made sure we are generally "in a game" but without the defensive solidity to grind out the 1-0s consistently and without any quality upfront we are going to bobble around midtable lower or higher.

I maintain that if you whack Deki, Maddison, Solanke and Udogie in at decent form/fitness levels things would be more watchable and we'd be several points better off, but there's an obvious ceiling to this, there's a lack of connection with the fans and overall it all seems highly MEH.
 
Certainly a question worth asking, but seeing as our CBs are starters for their nations and our FBs internationals too, I'd say there's more to it. The keeper is certainly suspect in several ways. I still think with those two CBs playing the same amount of games last season as this, we'd have had significantly more points, but it is just a theory based on numbers when they were available.
Hard not to feel sorry for Frank re: injuries. They're mounting up. As they do when you have to keep playing the same players. As we've seen in previous seasons when said-injuries were blamed solely on a series of false premises.
International football is pretty different though. Romero only has to concentrate for limited periods and his questionable decision making and rashness isn't as exposed. Just for example. None of our defenders are "defenders" is my main problem. If you were asked to name our defenders primary strengths/weaknesses it starts to make a lot of sense:
Romero: Strengths: ball playing, vision, control, technique. Weaknesses: Concentration, temperament, marking, positioning, defensive decision making.
VDV: Strengths: pace, surging runs, technique. Weaknesses: concentration, marking, heading, positioning, defending 1-v-1.
Porro: strengths.....you ger the picture....
 
Yep. International caps are given out like green shield stamps nowadays.
They’re internationals for Spain, Argentina, The Netherlands and England though. You don’t play for those countries without being very good. Fair enough, Porro hasn’t been a regular in the squad and nor has Spence but they are good players.

The CBs are excellent players too. Fair enough, they have faults but not so long ago, I saw a post on here saying they were probably better than Jan and Toby (they are good but absolutely aren’t better than the Belgians) and last year you couldn’t move for the comments on here about how Ange not having them was the reason for our bad defensive record.
 
They’re internationals for Spain, Argentina, The Netherlands and England though. You don’t play for those countries without being very good. Fair enough, Porro hasn’t been a regular in the squad and nor has Spence but they are good players.

The CBs are excellent players too. Fair enough, they have faults but not so long ago, I saw a post on here saying they were probably better than Jan and Toby (they are good but absolutely aren’t better than the Belgians) and last year you couldn’t move for the comments on here about how Ange not having them was the reason for our bad defensive record.
For me, the point is, PL football is much higher level than international football, so it doesn’t really matter, it’s like saying Luke Littler is pretty good, he plays for the Dog & Duck 6.
 
YOU do. Maybe some of us do. Johan Lange doesn't. It would be tantamount to admitting he got something wrong himself, and he won't do that without a fight. I think a lot of our issues go back to Lange. He is driving our identity, Frank is just his employee...

What genuinely surprises me is that, given the club absolutely knows about the whole ‘Tottenham Way’ thing, to the point that Levy commented on it, proving that it definitely isn’t something isolated to the fans or a weird internet obsession…why do we persist with these reactive pragmatic managers? I get the value of them, but the fact is that unless results follow the match going fans especially just will not tolerate much of it before turning. And that hastens a toxic atmosphere, PR nightmares, and it is clearly stressing the players.

Both Paratici and Lange now, other than Ange which was seemingly a special case in order to unify the club after the Conte season, seem to want pragmatic, reactive football. Is it just what they want, or is it some great foresight on the way the PL is moving and trying to be on trend?

Is it just impossible to be on trend and be more proactive today? Or are they just not really bothered about the ‘traditions’ of the club? I’m someone that less demands proactive football as such, as long as I can see a plan of any sort, but purely from an alignment perspective across boardroom, coaches, players and fans, I don’t fully understand why decisions kept being made that lock one and potentially two of those constituencies out of the equation.
 
Personally my arguments about Frank have mainly been with myself. I like him as a person, want him to succeed. That's in contrast to all of Ange, Conte and Mourinho, who i actively disliked, so had little tolerance for.

But the sample size is big enough now, and there are no green shoots. We arent getting better and there's no sign of what the plan or vision is. I would absolutely have rejoiced if we'd come out tonight, played aggressive pass and move football and blown them away. But ive just finally accepted that that is just never going to happen. He is another Nuno or Potter

I genuinely think there have been green shoots. In terms of performances and intention from around maybe the nadir of the Chelsea / Arsenal games. I felt like I saw what we were trying to do. We defended well when we wanted to, we raised our game when we wanted to.

Unfortunately, I think we haven’t had the breaks, and I think the squad has lacked confidence. And when that happens, the defensive side of things dropped, players start being a second slower to things, and that’s all it takes for things to fall apart. We should have beaten Sunderland, and I think that in itself would have made things feel a load better.

And that’s my worry now. Confidence is so low that inspite of the green shoots that I feel like I’m seeing (I do think the players are trying) I just don’t know how it recovers from here. The club will have to display extreme confidence in Frank. They’ll have to be willing to finish mid table, if only to take the pressure valve out of the team and let them start to enjoy things again. I just don’t know whether they have that in them, and I don’t know whether the atmosphere with the fans survives it.

Its a pickle…
 
Also, the issue with him playing at a lower intensity and being heavy on rotation and STILL suffering a lot of injuries now is an interesting one. His approach is supposed to give us more options. But we’re going to be running certain players into the ground again now because we have so many dropping.
 
I do.

He's a good manager, I like his attitude to the game, I like his pragmatism.
I want him to bring some players in, especially a LB. I also want to see him with our main attacking outlets (Solanke/Kulu/Maddison) or good alternatives brought in to replace what we have now, which is fundamentally nothing. If it’s more of the same, then will reconsider in the summer but impossible task for any manager to get a tune out of our current attacking players, even a 50% Son would have done more.
 
International football is pretty different though. Romero only has to concentrate for limited periods and his questionable decision making and rashness isn't as exposed. Just for example. None of our defenders are "defenders" is my main problem. If you were asked to name our defenders primary strengths/weaknesses it starts to make a lot of sense:
Romero: Strengths: ball playing, vision, control, technique. Weaknesses: Concentration, temperament, marking, positioning, defensive decision making.
VDV: Strengths: pace, surging runs, technique. Weaknesses: concentration, marking, heading, positioning, defending 1-v-1.
Porro: strengths.....you ger the picture....

I think it's a really interesting discussion and pertains to structure through the team.
In order to accomodate attacking/front-foot players, you need a structure which supports them.
I think if played 10 yards higher up the pitch, VdV and Romero are excellent. I think when you have a Palhinha in the 6, it should allow you to do that and have great security without that 6 needing a twin. Modify the deployment of FBs in such a role i.e. don't send them both at once, and I think it'd be possible to get a more attacking front-foot game going whilst making sure the same invitations to raid in behind us aren't offered.

I would agree that our biggest issues are when we have to sit deeper and purely defend. In that regard I understand why Danso is a favourite because he is an absolute animal of a CB and a total defensive unit; he is average on the ball, but in your point/discussion, that is not the primary concern.

I think with their respective countries, the responsibilities and shape on the ball are universally better. Argentina do a far better job of maintaining possession. We are not currently over-interested in that style it seems. Still, I think it's a good point of discussion for sure, albeit I think there are mitigations as to why it is not working too well right now.
 
Are you able to stop posting until we win 8 from 10?

Asking for a friend 😘
It's not me that should stop posting, it's you. Because you keep living in lala land in thinking that this win run under Frank will come. How about this, you stop posting until we get 8 wins out of 10 PL games and I will stop posting for 6 months after that comes? Put your "money" where your mouth is.
 
I want him to bring some players in, especially a LB.
gotta convince lange first
our recruitment has too heavily relied on youth previously and our failures at mgw and eze has cost us dearly
chelsea has done a much better job at recruiting youths and young players that are ready for the EPL though inexperienced
 
Come on mate. this is our standard now? we looked ok for a little bit against Bournemouth?

We didn't dominate the game, we didn't own possession, their keeper had one notable save, we still fudge up basics like throw ins, the manager was slow on subs (RKM should have come off at HT)

Where the fudge is @DubaiSpur to back me up, this is our ambition, 3 wins in last 12 PL games and well at least we didn't get tonked is the sentiment?

I'm here mate, though I mainly lurk these days.

Fact is, Frank isn't the problem. Give him enough time and he'll look better, only because nearly any coach looks better once he's given time. And he's a good bloke - humble and truthful, which always counts for something in my book.

Whether his system has much upside beyond, say, 10th-12th every year - that's still to be decided, given his high water-mark at Brentford was finishing midtable.

But ultimately, keep Frank or sack Frank, neither will really fix the hole we're in. Only money can fix that - moving on poor players and buying good ones, in positions that make sense, to keep the squad constantly improving, getting better.

What has happened at Spurs has been the opposite - starting from the high water-mark in 2017, our approach has been to consistently buy backups and downgrades to the players we used to have, and then watch as those players became starters and the older, better players left.

Walker -> Aurier -> Doherty -> Porro,
Kane -> Richy,
Son-> Tel/Odobert,
Eriksen -> Lo Celso -> Maddison -> now Simons,
Dembele->Sissoko/Winks-> Ndombele -> Hojbjerg -> Bentancur/Palhinha,
Lloris -> Vicario,

...and so on.

In each case, a better player was replaced by a worse one, who ended up becoming our starter. It's rare a player now even remotely compares to the Poch team of 16-17 - not even a decade ago. Because of the above cycle.

Take Udogie as an example. He's a sicknote, and on/off when he does play. It's clear we need a second left-back to rotate with him, possibly even replace him.

But those players cost money and wages - first-team left backs won't leave their clubs to compete with Udogie without being paid, and we don't pay wages to get them.

So we settle on instead buying a backup to plug the gap when he's out, who obviously won't be as good, but (typically) whom we hope can come good over time - so, a youngster. This window's version seems to be that Brazilian kid Souza. When he's put in, standards will inevitably fall, just because he's raw and untested. And thus the standards are lowered to a new baseline, and the cycle begins again.

Whereas, imagine if we went and got a starter to challenge Udogie instead - if Udogie can't cut it, he drops to the bench, simple as. A top-class left-back.

The opposite happens. Standards rise. Everyone around the club gets a lift - players know they have to perform or lose their place. Managers have options to pick. Suddenly the club looks ambitious again.

Do this enough times and you have a virtuous cycle. No player can take his place for granted, the squad is full of talent, and basically any manager can succeed - this is exactly what happened at Woolwich, and they're going to win the league because of it.

Until I see us engaging in that sort of behaviour, I don't expect anything to change mate. And so I don't get annoyed about it any more - it's plain as day to see our direction, and until it changes, I won't let my mental health be destroyed by agonizing over it. These days it hurts a little less when we lose than it used to, and that's worth something. To me, at least.
 
These cooked up stats stitch me up. There are a hundred ways to skin a cat... not to mention the well oiled phrase... lies, damned lies and statistics. Maybe you have not noticed.... the sole aim of a game of football is to get points from every game played - either one or three - and nothing else!! It's like people dissing the arse for scoring from so many set pieces; do they give a fudge looking down on everyone else from the top of the table?

Tell me... who do you prefer to be: bottom of this irrelevant table or in the 11th position occupied by the Wet Spammers.... and of course the equivalent league positions.
are you not noticing our lack of forward passes and attempts on goal this season?
what is relevant is do you think that the group of players that TF has are better than 14th.
no stats tell the complete story, you have to use it wisely
 
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