Thomas Frank - Head Coach

[MartyFunkhouser]

That is strange as you watched it. Was it sustainable?

First team in history of the PL to win as many in the first 10 and not finish in the Top 4

Was an exciting first season till it wasn't TBH, thats not all on Ange TBH, he didn't have the depth

But we were tactically naive, putting it nicely

 

[Finney Is Back]

First team in history of the PL to win as many in the first 10 and not finish in the Top 4

Was an exciting first season till it wasn't TBH, thats not all on Ange TBH, he didn't have the depth

But we were tactically naive, putting it nicely

Took pretty much this team (though including Son, but minus a whole bunch of signings made since) to a 5th placed PL finish having just lost Harry Kane (without him being replaced at all). That was some going. I don't expect Frank to get us as high as 5th place if he spends 3 years here (though I don't think he'll get more than this season unless the performances hugely improve in the second half of the season)

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

Took pretty much this team (though including Son, but minus a whole bunch of signings made since) to a 5th placed PL finish having just lost Harry Kane (without him being replaced at all). That was some going. I don't expect Frank to get us as high as 5th place if he spends 3 years here (though I don't think he'll get more than this season unless the performances hugely improve in the second half of the season)

Yeh and he got credit for that, but the tactics were largely naive still

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

I think it is way more than that. Poch and Frank are about nurturing. They are about complete trust and having the right relationship with their players. When you look at the long term nurturing project of Mbuemo, that's where Frank and Poch are similar. Poch did amazing things with his 2 full-backs, Walker and Rose. He transformed Dembele into the deeper midfielder that could transition us through the thirds. Poch also got Eriksen absolutely buzzing in a Spurs shirt. By far, our most important player for a long period of Poch's tenure.

Ange was slightly different. He was about a squad siege mentality and unconditional belief in his approach. I don't think he was a relationships guy though. I read some stuff about him actually being quite aloof to his players.

What I'm also hoping is that Frank and this new regime are quite hard. I'm finding the Brennan Johnson thing interesting. It's as if Frank has seen enough and told his employers to get the next churn done. Our club needs more of that.

Sure, I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said there. Nurturing absolutely comes into it.

I too think the Brennan thing is interesting it’s very different to what would have happened under Levy, and is a little bit of what Poch was asking for back in 2018. Trust to not just get the signings they need, but move out the players they want to move too. And if it’s because we have a deal lined up whereby we sign someone quickly that Frank really wants and we get them integrated. Rather than rushing around at the end of Jan, then happy days.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Interestingly enough, in season two our pressing was less intense than in season one and more situational.

Was it? You think we didn’t press at times in the second season? There’s those Europa games with a vs low block, but can’t think of many others. Maybe some where we had fixture congestion?

Our metrics in that first part of the season were all better than the season before until we got that burst of horrible injuries.

I think you might be rewriting history a little. Ange was insistent he has a clear philosophy and way of playing. Which was impressive - giving clarity for players and a bit of a fuk em all approach - we press and we attack. Trying to suggest there was subtlety to that press is a stretch - even you have to admit. It wasn’t coordinated. The press followed the ball.

It wasnt each of our players staying with one man. A forward would literally chase passes from one man to the next! It wasn’t targeted - forcing the ball to weaker players in the opposition team. It was refreshingly simple - chase the ball and sprint! Simplicity isn’t bad and it worked to a point.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

I think that's my point that people aren't getting. Frank and any manager will have a philosophy. The reactive part to the strengths and weaknesses of the opposition is at the fringe, not the core of their tactics. It's the tweaking that gets best of both worlds.

You seem to talk like Frank being reactive to the opposition is the core of his tactics. It really isn't. It's the last 20% to enable his own philosophy of how he wants his teams to play. I would argue that he hasn't found that formula yet based on what we've seen. It's in there somewhere though and he's waiting for the breakthroughs to happen.

I think we will eventually see Frank imposing his tactics on teams whilst constraining their own tactics. That is why he was hired and what you have to be in this current PL. Unfortunately, the PL has gone way too tactical and is becoming as dull as ditchwater, Even Pep has completely reined in all his free flowing football. It's functional, and Pep will be focusing more on the opposition than ever.

It’s my opinion of course but I just don’t think Frank is working up to some sort of ‘Frankball’ that we just haven’t seen yet. If he was, I don’t think he’d wait half a season to show any semblance of his in possession ideas at all. Every other coach I can think of that has a defined in possession style largely got to implementing it on day 1. It then improved and adjusted over time but you would see immediately what a team was trying to do.

I think Frank is about data, efficiencies and percentages. I think his principles are around maintaining condition via rotation and tempo adjustment in game. And I think he makes game specific adjustments more than other coaches.

Where I think we will see more of an in possession game is Frank feeling comfortable that the players understand his principles out of possession and where he feels comfortable in the quality of the squad, that we get more performances like Brentford at home. It was more handbrake off and letting our quality tell. But for most away games I think we’re going to see what we saw at Palace. And for the tougher home games we’re going to see more of what we saw versus United. With better execution as players adjust and our squad improves. I could be totally wrong, but I just don’t think you change who you are as a manager that much. And I don’t think Pep has completely reined in - he’s just more situationally willing to adjust based on the game state.

Where I think Frank has done some interesting things is in possession game specific plans. Like Djed as a very high inverted full back to disrupt Slavia’s man marking press. I also thought at Everton there was interesting use of Johnson and Kudus, almost creating a double up overload on the right, which I assumed was in part to force Grealish back defending as he was clearly their best player.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

So outline what I am missing, which is what I asked at the begining of this conversation. You havn't been able to outline anything more yourself, despite claiming there was more to Ange's press. It exisits I just can't tell you what it is.


We were talking about one specific truth: that sprinting press all game for 95 mins, and in every game, is unsustainable. That is way off for you? Why?


Re-read my previous posts. You're putting words into peoples mouths. It can certainally work. Especialy for smaller sides without Europe or in big games or deployed at times during a game.



You said you thought it was disrespectful to call Ange's press 'school yard' but havn't managed to outline anything to make me think this is unfair.

I tried to outline the nuances around pressing structures at the elite level. I can’t give you the break down of exactly what Ange was doing without going back and watching all the games, but triggers, funnelling, body position, coordination across the whole team, it’s all there. As I said, it’s extremely high risk and so if there wasn’t good coordination we’d get beaten by 10 goals every game. As it was, when we were actually doing more of the pressing that you don’t like, we had fantastic underlying metrics for chances conceded. The worse results came once we stopped doing the pressing you don’t like, because of insane injuries.

And I would just say, if the closest the opposition gets to our goal is a sprint versus Micky from the half way line, which he easily wins, that’s great for us. That’s the system working as intended. And there were plenty of games under Ange where that was the case.

I could easily say Frank’s defensive structure is school yard, because it involves simplistically packing the box with no nuance and actually leaves us wide open to long range efforts which elite players can score with good consistency. But I wouldn’t say that, because Frank’s system also has a lot more nuance.

I’m not following why you think the only way a system that involves pressing high for most of the game can only work for teams not in Europe, when we live in a world where Klopp’s Dortmund happened, of Poch’s Spurs happened, or Klopp’s Liverpool happened. I actually don’t even think the most extreme thing about Ange was his pressing. I think it was more the tempo in possession, the fact that he would invert both full backs and play a ball carrier in the six position. And the combination of all of those things together makes it very high risk high reward.

Simply put, we had better results under Ange and better underlying defensive metrics when actually pressing in your school yard way, versus when we didn’t. That’s why I think you’re way off.

 

[Raziel]

Yeah, perhaps even feels a little more solid than before when I think about it.

For me 16/17 was the peak side and then we went into decline. It's been a really rough post-Poch era at the club. More recently, we've invested in a younger group of players and we're in total nurturing mode. Since guys like Romero and Kulu walked into the club we've been on a solid build out of the squad. That squad is pretty decent but full to the brim at this stage. In the next phase we can really get it to the next level by rotating a few.

There are so many reasons to feel optimistic in my mind. I just don't always feel that from fellow fans. I think they're way too focused on what's happened in the last 2 or 3 games rather than the bigger picture.

Look at us now as opposed to post-Bilbao. Do you even recognise the place?

I'm a little surprised with @Muttley's view, I think I'm more aligned with @thfcsteff here

For me, we are adrift, certainly from an outside perspective
- Firing Ange was the right thing to do (I'll die on that hill) but it killed a lot of the upside of finally breaking the hoodo re trophies, it put us right back into that Spurs cycle of promise/decent but not great results/reboot that has been the last 30 years expect for the Harry & Poch timeframes
- Levy, good or bad, was a huge part of the club, and the predictability, e.g. if Levy was here and Frank lost the last two games plus say 1 in the next 3, we know what the result would be, now? if Franks stays bottom half of table, what's the decision, dead man walking for half a season?
- Old ownership with new story, do we really know what their vision is, Simon Jordon (yes, let's not have a if you like him conversation) is convinced they want to sell and moving Levy was part of that. Why is the money suddenly available? why not a month before summer window closed? so much unknown. Paratici possibly bailing also says something.
- And we are toxic, we have no connections anymore, no Levy to hate, no Son to love, a decent manager but not one that has people onboard and our rivals are in their best period in a decade.

And that's where I do have some sympathy for Frank, this job is a step up for him and there is way more than squad tactics to fix, where his old role, all of that was in place.

 

[Raziel]

It’s my opinion of course but I just don’t think Frank is working up to some sort of ‘Frankball’ that we just haven’t seen yet. If he was, I don’t think he’d wait half a season to show any semblance of his in possession ideas at all. Every other coach I can think of that has a defined in possession style largely got to implementing it on day 1. It then improved and adjusted over time but you would see immediately what a team was trying to do.

I agree unfortunately and I think if that is the case, he will inevitably fail.

You have to have a model to impose your game on others, yes you should adjust for particularly difficult opponents or important games but there has to be a default mode, I genuinely think his strategy is one game at a time (works for a club who's point of existence is survival)

 

[metalgear]

I will boldly predict that if somehow Thomas’ Tottenham find themselves in the last 8 of the CL, yet 15th or 16th in the PL but with a 15 point cushion between us and the bottom three, absolutely no-one would have a single issue with trying the same thing twice, especially with a manager that puts huge stock in ‘per game per opponent’ specialist preparation.
I am not, BTW, saying that I disagree with you. It’s just lightning in a bottle malarky!

(Caveat - I am not mad enough to believe that this scenario could happen…or could it?)

i don't think so - i think the revenue of CL will weigh heavily on management and TF

maybe he can pull a postecoglu and we end up in the bottom half of the table but win the CL

 

[Raziel]

i don't think so - i think the revenue of CL will weigh heavily on management and TF

maybe he can pull a postecoglu and we end up in the bottom half of the table but win the CL

Would be the most Spurs thing ever -> produce a genuinely competitive side for 15 years, consistently show in all comps, win nothing, produce a side that is utter dross in most competitions, win Europe's two big trophies ...

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

I agree unfortunately and I think if that is the case, he will inevitably fail.

You have to have a model to impose your game on others, yes you should adjust for particularly difficult opponents or important games but there has to be a default mode, I genuinely think his strategy is one game at a time (works for a club who's point of existence is survival)

I don’t know…I’m open minded on whether he fails because I think maybe there’s some element of Italian reactivity, combined with the long term nurturing / culture building that actually suits a club like ours, combined with doing interesting things in possession via game by game adjustments…maybe there’s something there. But I do think people expecting some in possession Frankball just waiting to be unleashed are going to be disappointed. I think he showed with Brentford that when their squad improved relative to the league he would weight towards more attacking / progressive football when he judged they were superior. And so I have hope that we’ll see more Brentford / Slavia / Copenhagen home games with him here. But I’m going to be very surprised to see us turn up to a tough away ground trying to impose our possession game on a team for let’s say at least 45 of the 90. Ditto the tougher home games. In those matches I think it will be low risk, low tempo, direct play when containing, and countering when appropriate. And I think our possession game comes alive for probably 30 out of the 90 in those matches, probably towards the end of halves.

 

[Raziel]

I don’t know…I’m open minded on whether he fails because I think maybe there’s some element of Italian reactivity, combined with the long term nurturing / culture building that actually suits a club like ours, combined with doing interesting things in possession via game by game adjustments…maybe there’s something there. But I do think people expecting some in possession Frankball just waiting to be unleashed are going to be disappointed. I think he showed with Brentford that when their squad improved relative to the league he would weight towards more attacking / progressive football when he judged they were superior. And so I have hope that we’ll see more Brentford / Slavia / Copenhagen home games with him here. But I’m going to be very surprised to see us turn up to a tough away ground trying to impose our possession game on a team for let’s say at least 45 of the 90. Ditto the tougher home games. In those matches I think it will be low risk, low tempo, direct play when containing, and countering when appropriate. And I think our possession game comes alive for probably 30 out of the 90 in those matches, probably towards the end of halves.

But I struggle to see even the basics

- Surely from a data/stats perspective, possession is safer to have than concede?
- What is the pattern to get the ball forward?

Brentford was a mostly direct/fast back to front team with certain pivots and outlets, and those changed/adapted over time based on personnel (e.g. with/without Toney). what are we? we have seen smash the ball to Kudus and hope, but what is he supposed to do with it? pass/shoot, who is making the runs?

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

But I struggle to see even the basics

- Surely from a data/stats perspective, possession is safer to have than concede?
- What is the pattern to get the ball forward?

Brentford was a mostly direct/fast back to front team with certain pivots and outlets, and those changed/adapted over time based on personnel (e.g. with/without Toney). what are we? we have seen smash the ball to Kudus and hope, but what is he supposed to do with it? pass/shoot, who is making the runs?

I’m sure we can use data to make all sorts of arguments about possession being safer, or packing the box being safer. It’s how you model it, and that’s what’s beautiful about football in that there are so many different approaches that can work.

I think the pattern to get the ball forward is mostly direct, especially because we’ve seen 4-1-5 and 4-2-4 shapes in possession a lot. Although I would say this is the pattern when we are in our containing phase. For the rarer moments where we play more progressively (I think this is to exploit the tiredness we create in the opposition) I think there’s more overlapping full backs, playing between the lines etc. But I agree it’s not a ‘system’ we look to impose on other teams, it’s a mode we move into at the time he judges to be right.

And I think that’s what Frank’s ‘system’ actually is. It’s phases. With each game state having the high % play applied to it.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

But I struggle to see even the basics

- Surely from a data/stats perspective, possession is safer to have than concede?
- What is the pattern to get the ball forward?

Brentford was a mostly direct/fast back to front team with certain pivots and outlets, and those changed/adapted over time based on personnel (e.g. with/without Toney). what are we? we have seen smash the ball to Kudus and hope, but what is he supposed to do with it? pass/shoot, who is making the runs?

Brentford played a fairly decent brand of football, ours hasn't been a dire as people are making out all the time, but when its been bad yes its been bad.

But that gives me hope and makes me confident that the sample size is too small thus far at Spurs to really judge. I am sure many will prove me wrong with war and peace reasons why we should think otherwise

 

[Finney Is Back]

Yeh and he got credit for that, but the tactics were largely naive still

5th place in the PL followed by a Europa League win…. I’d take that two year sequence forevermore…

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

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5th place in the PL followed by a Europa League win…. I’d take that two year sequence forevermore…

Who wouldn't, but it was achieved by reeling in the naivety in our tactics and being more pragmatic when needed

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

=


Who wouldn't, but it was achieved by reeling in the naivety in our tactics and being more pragmatic when needed

Genuine question - do you think Iraola is naive?

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

This idea that there is a perfect form of pragmatism in football that has no trade offs in and of itself and that it is the only mature way to run a team is nonsense.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

This idea that there is a perfect form of pragmatism in football that has no trade offs in and of itself and that it is the only mature way to run a team is nonsense.

No one is saying that from what I can see, I think people are talking about there being a balance. (From what I can tell from the boring nonsense of Ange v Frank)

Some people have made a decision on Frank in what is, for me, a small sample size given his Brentford team were fluid and played nice stuff. So be it

As for Iraola, I think he is a good manager but he would be suited to adapt his chaos ball, as exciting as it might be as a neutral, and I rate him. No way he goes to a Liverpool, City or Arsenal and that style is a success without some adaption IMO