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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

@Gazza genuinely sorry to hear about the experiences that have shaped your negativity towards Islam. But your posts are propagating so many anti muslim tropes. Firstly, by lumping over a billion people together as one homogeneous, homophobic, women oppressing group who follow only Sharia law. And by claiming they will threaten your life if you criticise their religion - which is clearly not the case with @LutonSpurs . There will no doubt be people practicing Islam who fit that profile. But as you know, any large human group dynamic has within it people who hold a wide spectrum of views, some of them extreme. Whether those groups are based around religion, politics sport or just an online community even. As I've said before you are clearly an intelligent and articulate poster so I've found your posts in this thread surprising.
 
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scaramanga said:
There's a section of this forum (and the country in general) that wants to conflate a dislike of a religion with a dislike of a race. That way, then can jump up and down shouting "Racist" every time that religion is criticised.
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I think you are being disingenuous here. it feels like you have invented this artificial line between religion and race to amplify your dislike of Islam and Muslims. In reality the boundaries are far more blurred than you are making out. The attacks against muslims are rarely about religious ideology alone, because Islamic ideology, (what I know of it) is not homogeneous but wrapped up with cultural beliefs and appearances too.

The All Party Parliamentary Group published a report in 2018 describing islamophobia in the following terms:-

In the West, Islam has been racialised. This means that “Muslimness” is given a racial character, and ascribed with the quality of non-Whiteness. And so whilst “markers of Muslimness” vary based on gender, such as certain attire (hijab, taqiyah) or facial hair (beards), they broadly include a South Asian, West Asian or North African phenotype (facial features and skin colour), as well as South Asian, West Asian or North African cultural markers such as food and music. This means that anyone who looks (or acts) “Brown” or “Middle Eastern” is a potential target of Islamophobia, since everyone who looks “Brown” or “Middle Eastern” is conflated with “Muslimness”. Islamophobia is therefore based on stereotyping entire regions with many different peoples and cultures into one homogenous group. There are documented instances of South Asians (many of whom are Sikh, but also Hindus and Christians), Black men with beards, but also Central and Eastern European migrant men, being targeted by Islamophobic abuse.

Understanding how Islamophobia also targets non-Muslims allows us to further understand how Islamophobia functions as racism. Islamophobia turns Muslims, but also those perceived to be Muslim, into “racialised Others”.

I think this articulates really well how the lines between islamophobia and racism are blurred. Ironically not so dissimilar to your point about the cultural heritage of Jews and the antisemitism you rightly abhor.
 
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LutonSpurs said:
I think what she was intending was terrorism.
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A lot will depend on the assessed mental state and thought process in the lead up to her actions.

intent to kill or cause harm to advance a political goal or ideology is the bit of the terrorism act that would seem to fit but it might be easier to prosecute under "normal" laws if you don't see the benefit in terms of using terrorism legislation.
 
Robspur12 said:
@Gazza genuinely sorry to hear about the experiences that have shaped your negativity towards Islam. But your posts are propagating so many anti muslim tropes. Firstly, by lumping over a billion people together as one homogeneous, homophobic, women oppressing group who follow only Sharia law. And by claiming they will threaten your life if you criticise their religion - which is clearly not the case with @LutonSpurs . There will no doubt be people practicing Islam who fit that profile. But as you know, any large human group dynamic has within it people who hold a wide spectrum of views, some of them extreme. Whether those groups are based around religion, politics sport or just an online community even. As I've said before you are clearly an intelligent and articulate poster so I've found your posts in this thread surprising.
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As ever, superbly articulated mate. Thank you.
 
Robspur12 said:
@Gazza genuinely sorry to hear about the experiences that have shaped your negativity towards Islam. But your posts are propagating so many anti muslim tropes. Firstly, by lumping over a billion people together as one homogeneous, homophobic, women oppressing group who follow only Sharia law. And by claiming they will threaten your life if you criticise their religion - which is clearly not the case with @LutonSpurs . There will no doubt be people practicing Islam who fit that profile. But as you know, any large human group dynamic has within it people who hold a wide spectrum of views, some of them extreme. Whether those groups are based around religion, politics sport or just an online community even. As I've said before you are clearly an intelligent and articulate poster so I've found your posts in this thread surprising.
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Thank you
 
Robspur12 said:
@Gazza genuinely sorry to hear about the experiences that have shaped your negativity towards Islam. But your posts are propagating so many anti muslim tropes. Firstly, by lumping over a billion people together as one homogeneous, homophobic, women oppressing group who follow only Sharia law. And by claiming they will threaten your life if you criticise their religion - which is clearly not the case with @LutonSpurs . There will no doubt be people practicing Islam who fit that profile. But as you know, any large human group dynamic has within it people who hold a wide spectrum of views, some of them extreme. Whether those groups are based around religion, politics sport or just an online community even. As I've said before you are clearly an intelligent and articulate poster so I've found your posts in this thread surprising.
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I appreciate your measured thoughts. Some I agree with and some points not so much.

I would say my points are not favourable with Islam. Well of course there are Muslims who do not agree with sharia law, and rightly so. However this is seen as “shirk” and anti Islamic, by that definition you are no longer Muslim.

I am a strong believer of equal rights and especially women’s rights and people to have their own expression of life without being persecuted for it, including homosexuality. This again does not coincide with what is written in Islamic texts or practiced in most islamic countries.

Like I said I don’t hate Muslims because most don’t have a choice in anything else growing up in certain communities and countries where you can be put to death for thinking otherwise.

For example not all Nazis were terrible people but were caught up in the indoctrination of the climate. I’m sure they would rather not be tarred with that brush too.

There is hope for freedom of all people. I won’t bore you with all of the stats.

Now finally this was all kicked off by me questioning if Tommy Robinson was a racist. Some people have said that they have proof of it. I have seen otherwise. He has a massive disdain for Islam and is a clam in certain issues. And I opposed that argument with how tolerant Islamism or islamists are and repeatedly said I do not hate Muslims. It’s exactly the same when people say that all Tommy Robinson supporters are far right and racist? Surely the same argument is that some agree with some of his points whatever they may be?

I’ve been to Morocco lots of times and the society is progressive, charming and the brass is out of this world. Not that I took part lol. I’ve got relatives in Pakistan that are only Muslim by name, they drink and party just like people in western countries. However their lack of acceptance of other religions is quite deplorable.

And yes by sharia law it’s disgusting you only have to read understand it and how it’s being deployed all in the name of GHod? Doing his dirty work? I mean honestly you got to be heartless and a bit dense to even think that it’s ok.

Now finally the biggest point i disagree with is that you think that I’m an intelligent and articulate person.

Well it was a good discussion for the most part. Now I’m bored of it so I’ll let sleeping dogs lie.
 
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Robspur12 said:
I think you are being disingenuous here. it feels like you have invented this artificial line between religion and race to amplify your dislike of Islam and Muslims. In reality the boundaries are far more blurred than you are making out. The attacks against muslims are rarely about religious ideology alone, because Islamic ideology, (what I know of it) is not homogeneous but wrapped up with cultural beliefs and appearances too.

The All Party Parliamentary Group published a report in 2018 describing islamophobia in the following terms:-

In the West, Islam has been racialised. This means that “Muslimness” is given a racial character, and ascribed with the quality of non-Whiteness. And so whilst “markers of Muslimness” vary based on gender, such as certain attire (hijab, taqiyah) or facial hair (beards), they broadly include a South Asian, West Asian or North African phenotype (facial features and skin colour), as well as South Asian, West Asian or North African cultural markers such as food and music. This means that anyone who looks (or acts) “Brown” or “Middle Eastern” is a potential target of Islamophobia, since everyone who looks “Brown” or “Middle Eastern” is conflated with “Muslimness”. Islamophobia is therefore based on stereotyping entire regions with many different peoples and cultures into one homogenous group. There are documented instances of South Asians (many of whom are Sikh, but also Hindus and Christians), Black men with beards, but also Central and Eastern European migrant men, being targeted by Islamophobic abuse.

Understanding how Islamophobia also targets non-Muslims allows us to further understand how Islamophobia functions as racism. Islamophobia turns Muslims, but also those perceived to be Muslim, into “racialised Others”.

I think this articulates really well how the lines between islamophobia and racism are blurred. Ironically not so dissimilar to your point about the cultural heritage of Jews and the antisemitism you rightly abhor.
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I don't really give much of a fudge about what other people think and do, I've made that abundantly clear in my years here.

I think Islam is an abhorrent, stone age cult that has no place in a modern, enlightened society. It's adherents are, at best, cretinous halfwits who infect children with their dangerous indoctrination.

You may also have noticed that the APPG report was rejected by our elected government and described as "dangerous scaremongering"
 
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