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Why are we such a pushover against the top sides?

Spur of the moment

Frederic Kanoute
Daresay this question has been asked before on here but having done a search I'm blowed if i can find the thread, so here goes.

Okay it follows that we are going to lose more games than we win against the top sides, but why do Spurs always seems to capitulate more readily than other sides? Surely if we are not that far behind as compared with say, Sunderland, we should be getting better results over the longer term than we seem capable of?

Our recent record against Liverpool is horrific P3 L3 F0 A12

In 44 PL games games v Chelsea since the start of the Premier League we have secured just 26 points out of a possible 132, with a win percentage of less than 7%

Against United it's even fewer, just 25 points from a possible 132, although our win percentage is slightly better at 11%

We've done marginally better against the ******* with 44 points from 132 and a win percentage of around 20% but that's still pretty pathetic

Until 2010 we had a brilliant record against City, taking a massive 62 points from a possible 75, and that included the first few years after they'd won the lottery. But since 2010 it's gone totally the other way, having lost six out of the last seven with a horrific goal difference in those seven games of -15.

I'm sure if we were to analyse the results of clubs like Everton, Villa and Saudi Sportswashing Machine we'd find something similar but surely nothing like as abject?

So the big question is, why always us?
 
We lose CM.

Last time we looked good against them (AVB's first season) - Sandro and Dembele went toe-to-toe with them. Bentaleb (great prospect though he is) and Capoue, get overrun in these sorts of games - they aren't combatative enough
 
One theory i have is that we always play attacking football, taking the game to them whilst naively leaving ourselves relatively open at the back, whereas lesser sides adopt a more realistic approach and park the bus, hoping to get something on the break.
 
We lose CM.

Last time we looked good against them (AVB's first season) - Sandro and Dembele went toe-to-toe with them. Bentaleb (great prospect though he is) and Capoue, get overrun in these sorts of games - they aren't combatative enough

Absolutely Spot On. Also under Harry we started beating the Chelseas, Arscum, Scousers because we keeping things tight at the back (what yourselves!).

Also we lack direct fire power up front at the moment.
 
I just think we are poor at defending. As soon as anyone attacks us we pretty much concede. We dominate most other games
 
We lose CM.

Last time we looked good against them (AVB's first season) - Sandro and Dembele went toe-to-toe with them. Bentaleb (great prospect though he is) and Capoue, get overrun in these sorts of games - they aren't combatative enough

You're correct but you cant blame Capoue and Bentaleb.
The lost midfield because they were outnumbered 3 to 2.
They hadnt a chance. Also Liverpool had Sterling in between the lines which one of them had to pick up too.
 
Even when we were **** we never took pastings like we did last season, well, not all in one season anyway.
 
I agree with losing the CM battle. We don't have a player to dominate, nor one to dictate the tempo.

We also make FAR too many errors. Individual errors have killed us in the past 12 months. Last season was bizarre in the way we just completely capitulated. Spirit and morale play a big role in that. AVB and Sherwood certainly left a lot to be desired on that front.
 
One theory i have is that we always play attacking football, taking the game to them whilst naively leaving ourselves relatively open at the back, whereas lesser sides adopt a more realistic approach and park the bus, hoping to get something on the break.

I think this is accurate, we try to go toe-to-toe with them and end up getting battered. The smaller sides know they can't win that way so sit back, soak it up and hope to nick it on the counter or from a set-piece. We won't "lower" ourselves to play that way.
 
Under Harry we had a midfield of Modric and hudd/Parker and ledley king at the back. We could go toe to toe.
 
I agree with losing the CM battle. We don't have a player to dominate, nor one to dictate the tempo.

We also make FAR too many errors. Individual errors have killed us in the past 12 months. Last season was bizarre in the way we just completely capitulated. Spirit and morale play a big role in that. AVB and Sherwood certainly left a lot to be desired on that front.

It sounds like an obvious thing to say but I completely agree with you, we'll be in the game giving as good as we get and then one of the more error prone players will just **** something basic up and it's all downhill from there.

Rose, Kaboul, Naughton, Walker, Lloris, Daws (of last season) and Townsend (based on yesterday's starring introduction) are never too far away from making an absolute howler, no matter how well they're playing before, suddenly the brain just goes in to meltdown and the team tense up because of it, which freezes the attacking play and gets us more error prone leading to the utterly disgraceful capitulations that I'm most definitely used to (and tired of) seeing against the good teams.

That's the main thing I miss about Harry, the players actually looked up for it and came through with a performance.
 
Daresay this question has been asked before on here but having done a search I'm blowed if i can find the thread, so here goes.

Okay it follows that we are going to lose more games than we win against the top sides, but why do Spurs always seems to capitulate more readily than other sides? Surely if we are not that far behind as compared with say, Sunderland, we should be getting better results over the longer term than we seem capable of?

Our recent record against Liverpool is horrific P3 L3 F0 A12

In 44 PL games games v Chelsea since the start of the Premier League we have secured just 26 points out of a possible 132, with a win percentage of less than 7%

Against United it's even fewer, just 25 points from a possible 132, although our win percentage is slightly better at 11%

We've done marginally better against the ******* with 44 points from 132 and a win percentage of around 20% but that's still pretty pathetic

Until 2010 we had a brilliant record against City, taking a massive 62 points from a possible 75, and that included the first few years after they'd won the lottery. But since 2010 it's gone totally the other way, having lost six out of the last seven with a horrific goal difference in those seven games of -15.

I'm sure if we were to analyse the results of clubs like Everton, Villa and Saudi Sportswashing Machine we'd find something similar but surely nothing like as abject?

So the big question is, why always us?

A number of reasons.

1. We actually try to win the games instead of trying to keep it tight and nick something. This leaves us more open to the sucker punch. It also leaves us more likely to suffer a large defeat as we chase the game even more when we are behind.

2. As we are a 'big club' the opposition get themselves well up for the game, so their (generally) superior players are able to match ours for physicality, desire and all of those 'levellers'.

3. Lack of true competition for places. Hopefully Poch will address this, but last season we basically one left back who knew he would be playing in every game. I think we have already seen an improvement in Danny Rose's application on the pitch now he knows that he has a £10 million player giving him competition for his place. I thought that last season under both managers (but specifically AVB) certain players were frozen out or knew they would always play if fit so didn't have to give their all.

4. Tactics and approach to the game (last season specifically) We were simply awful under AVB, a high line with no pace at the back and the slowest transition between defence and attack that I have ever seen at Spurs which made it easy for the opposition to get themselves organised again and ready to strike against our shape that was overloaded with players too high up the pitch. Sherwood came in and improved our transition from defence to attack, but seemed to neglect our back 4 having enough protection.

5. Individual mistakes. I think we are guilty of sometimes carrying players who are either out of form, confidence or fitness (perhaps all three). Yesterday Kaboul was an accident waiting to happen (and one that did happen on multiple occasions).

6. Inexperience/being too nice. A few times yesterday when we got beyond Liverpool and were breaking they would just pull the player back and accept the yellow card. We had the opportunity to do this for both the first and third goals but didn't do so. Even the penalty decision was due to their player making a (huge) meal of a hand across him and a hold (but not really a pull) on his shirt, whereas Adebayor in the closing moments of the match tried to stay on his feet when the pull of his shirt was much more of a foul (I know that had no effect on the result - but it's just to emphasise the point).

7. Our team being a work in progress. Our chopping and changing of managers and styles means that we aren't able to settle into a rhythm and style of playing. I thought it was quite evident yesterday that Liverpool were two years ahead of us in their development. I thought that at times yesterday we did some good things with both our pressing and finding players in space in their half but let ourselves down due to the whole team not getting involved in the press or taking the right positions. Liverpool didn't suffer from this because they have been training and playing in their system for over 2 years now. It also seemed to me that when Liverpool's fullbacks attacked we looked outnumbered and in trouble, whereas when our fullbacks pushed forward, Liverpool had a much better defensive shape and didn't look troubled at all. Again I think this comes from the players knowing what positions to take up both when in and out of possession.

Yesterday's game specifically though I think we were just carrying too many players....

Dier looked like what he is (a young, inexperienced centre half being asked to play right back without any help from his midfield).

Capoue was desperately unsuited to that type of game as he was (or should I say is) far to slow and immobile to get close to Sterling and snuff out the player who was their main attacking threat and then not skilfull enough to be able to play in a game where the opposition do not give him lots of time.

Kaboul is either injured physically or mentally (or maybe both). After watching him yesterday he simply cannot play for us again, I could put up with him being slow and cumbersome with limited touch if he was playing in a strong and imposing manner. But he didn't even give us anything physically - it was clear right from early on that he didn't fancy a physical battle with Balotelli - I just thank GHod that West Ham didn't have Andy Carroll fit for the opening game of the season as that could've been even more embarrassing.

Erickson didn't get anywhere near involved enough in the game. He needs to man up, improve his movement and demand the ball. If that doesn't happen and we want to persist with him then I think we should look to cease with the interchangeable 3 attacking midfielders and have Erickson playing on the left of the three where he should find a little more space than he is able to centrally (this also might help our defensive game with our attackers being a little clearer on who should track the opposition fullbacks runs).

The rest of those on the pitch were no better than average (perhaps with the exception of Rose - who I thought hardly put a foot wrong the whole game) and Adebayor who caused them a few problems despite a very limited service).
 
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A number of reasons.

1. We actually try to win the games instead of trying to keep it tight and nick something. This leaves us more open to the sucker punch. It also leaves us more likely to suffer a large defeat as we chase the game even more when we are behind.

2. As we are a 'big club' the opposition get themselves well up for the game, so their (generally) superior players are able to match ours for physicality, desire and all of those 'levellers'.

3. Lack of true competition for places. Hopefully Poch will address this, but last season we basically one left back who knew he would be playing in every game. I think we have already seen an improvement in Danny Rose's application on the pitch now he knows that he has a £10 million player giving him competition for his place. I thought that last season under both managers (but specifically AVB) certain players were frozen out or knew they would always play if fit so didn't have to give their all.

4. Tactics and approach to the game (last season specifically) We were simply awful under AVB, a high line with no pace at the back and the slowest transition between defence and attack that I have ever seen at Spurs which made it easy for the opposition to get themselves organised again and ready to strike against our shape that was overloaded with players too high up the pitch. Sherwood came in and improved our transition from defence to attack, but seemed to neglect our back 4 having enough protection.

5. Individual mistakes. I think we are guilty of sometimes carrying players who are either out of form, confidence or fitness (perhaps all three). Yesterday Kaboul was an accident waiting to happen (and one that did happen on multiple occasions).

6. Inexperience/being too nice. A few times yesterday when we got beyond Liverpool and were breaking they would just pull the player back and accept the yellow card. We had the opportunity to do this for both the first and third goals but didn't do so. Even the penalty decision was due to their player making a (huge) meal of a hand across him and a hold (but not really a pull) on his shirt, whereas Adebayor in the closing moments of the match tried to stay on his feet when the pull of his shirt was much more of a foul (I know that had no effect on the result - but it's just to emphasise the point).

7. Our team being a work in progress. Our chopping and changing of managers and styles means that we aren't able to settle into a rhythm and style of playing. I thought it was quite evident yesterday that Liverpool were two years ahead of us in their development. I thought that at times yesterday we did some good things with both our pressing and finding players in space in their half but let ourselves down due to the whole team not getting involved in the press or taking the right positions. Liverpool didn't suffer from this because they have been training and playing in their system for over 2 years now. It also seemed to me that when Liverpool's fullbacks attacked we looked outnumbered and in trouble, whereas when our fullbacks pushed forward, Liverpool had a much better defensive shape and didn't look troubled at all. Again I think this comes from the players knowing what positions to take up both when in and out of possession.

Very close to it.

1. **** sides don't try to play, watch Stoke's game this week-end, for at least 1st half they just denied the "big side" the chance/space to play football. That's why we have been in a lot of "entertaining" (or what if) losses over the years to big sides. Yesterday's game would have been fairly interesting for a neutral up until the 3rd goal (could have gone either way).

2. Agreed, unfortunately big sides see us as a threat, and **** sides see us as a challenge, so almost all of our opponents in a season are "up for it"/cup final mentality, very hard for our lads to be up for every game in that way.

3. Disagree somewhat, only certain players respond to that extra level, competition is good, but so is knowing your best 11.

4. AVB/TS simply weren't good enough tactically, even Harry was more a depend on individual brilliance type of manager. We haven't had a manager that consistently leverages a system/tactics to beat better teams

5. Rose/Naughton last season, Townsend yesterday, stats back that up.

6. Inexperience I agree with, actually have argued that potentially our missing piece is not MS, but a 30 year old central midfield leader, our squad is almost too young, we need a been there done that to settle nerves at times

7. Yes ..

8. I would add that pre HR, perhaps pre BMJ when most of our dire record against Manure/Cheat$ki/Scum/Pool comes from, we were just a **** side with very few quality players (and the record would be no different that any bottom half PL side, e.g. plenty of sides in bottom half have never won away against top 4 opposition)

3-0 in some ways flattered Pool, it was no way close to the hammerings of last season where we just looked completely clueless for long periods. Poch actually described it correctly, a game where pivotal moments didn't go our way.

If we give Poch some time I think we will see less of those type of results
 
Absolutely Spot On. Also under Harry we started beating the Chelseas, Arscum, Scousers because we keeping things tight at the back (what yourselves!).

Also we lack direct fire power up front at the moment.

Redknapp was the one who got us performing against the better sides, at home anyway.We didnt lose to Liverpool, Arsenal, or chelsea at home whilst he was manager.Away we were a **** as usual though.Playing 2 in the middle in a classic 4-4-2 against teams like Arsenal didnt help.
AVB's first season we were good against the better sides aswell, it was only last season things started to go to **** for whatever reason.This season its just been one result so lets not start worrying at this stage.
 
I think the better teams have sussed to just let us have the ball then bang wait that opportunity.

Against Liverpool on Sunday.. whenever we won the ball we didn't move with pace and catch them on the back foot and therefore let there defenders become nervous wrecks as the game went on. It was really noticeable Sunday watching it, viewing the whole pitch and not the tv pitch picture. It was also noticeable how fast there players get back into position when they lost the ball as well, although that was helped by how slow we were.

I think having a full week to prepare last season really helped them nail there tactics.
 
About time that we started this thread, in fact we could have started this thread in the early 1990s when our poor records against Utd and Chelsea began. However in those days it would have crashed the internet.

My point is that this is clearly nothing new and no short term fix based on what we saw yesterday or even over the six capitulations we saw last season is going to solve the problem.

It is a combination of

1. Poor defending - we give away free goals.
2. Mentality - our club's mentality is to try to play open and attacking football. i.e. we make it easier for the other team to play.
3. No star, big game players - we sold Bale and VdV.
4. Inferiority complex - its been going on a long time.
5. Too many coaches/managers - the tactics have been wrong so often, part of the reason is that coaches only get one or two attempts and can't learn from it.

The solution

1. Pick a manager and stick with them.
2. Build a flexible defensive system (& squad) that works for QPR at home and Emirates Marketing Project away.
3. Attacking systems need a plan B & C.
4. Stop signing players off You Tube clips and start looking at how they perform in big games.
 
I think the better teams have sussed to just let us have the ball then bang wait that opportunity.

Against Liverpool on Sunday.. whenever we won the ball we didn't move with pace and catch them on the back foot and therefore let there defenders become nervous wrecks as the game went on. It was really noticeable Sunday watching it, viewing the whole pitch and not the tv pitch picture. It was also noticeable how fast there players get back into position when they lost the ball as well, although that was helped by how slow we were.

I think having a full week to prepare last season really helped them nail there tactics.

Agree with this post.

It looked like our main attacking threat was when we tried to win the ball back early. That was plan A, it worked well vs. QPR (2-3 goals) and will get us a top half finish but we certainly need a plan B and C for breaking down teams.
 
You're correct but you cant blame Capoue and Bentaleb.
The lost midfield because they were outnumbered 3 to 2.
They hadnt a chance. Also Liverpool had Sterling in between the lines which one of them had to pick up too.

I think in games like yesterday we are going to have to start using Paulinho instead of Eriksen as the #10 - switch more to 4-3-3.
 
A number of reasons.

1. We actually try to win the games instead of trying to keep it tight and nick something. This leaves us more open to the sucker punch. It also leaves us more likely to suffer a large defeat as we chase the game even more when we are behind.

2. As we are a 'big club' the opposition get themselves well up for the game, so their (generally) superior players are able to match ours for physicality, desire and all of those 'levellers'.

3. Lack of true competition for places. Hopefully Poch will address this, but last season we basically one left back who knew he would be playing in every game. I think we have already seen an improvement in Danny Rose's application on the pitch now he knows that he has a £10 million player giving him competition for his place. I thought that last season under both managers (but specifically AVB) certain players were frozen out or knew they would always play if fit so didn't have to give their all.

4. Tactics and approach to the game (last season specifically) We were simply awful under AVB, a high line with no pace at the back and the slowest transition between defence and attack that I have ever seen at Spurs which made it easy for the opposition to get themselves organised again and ready to strike against our shape that was overloaded with players too high up the pitch. Sherwood came in and improved our transition from defence to attack, but seemed to neglect our back 4 having enough protection.

5. Individual mistakes. I think we are guilty of sometimes carrying players who are either out of form, confidence or fitness (perhaps all three). Yesterday Kaboul was an accident waiting to happen (and one that did happen on multiple occasions).

6. Inexperience/being too nice. A few times yesterday when we got beyond Liverpool and were breaking they would just pull the player back and accept the yellow card. We had the opportunity to do this for both the first and third goals but didn't do so. Even the penalty decision was due to their player making a (huge) meal of a hand across him and a hold (but not really a pull) on his shirt, whereas Adebayor in the closing moments of the match tried to stay on his feet when the pull of his shirt was much more of a foul (I know that had no effect on the result - but it's just to emphasise the point).

7. Our team being a work in progress. Our chopping and changing of managers and styles means that we aren't able to settle into a rhythm and style of playing. I thought it was quite evident yesterday that Liverpool were two years ahead of us in their development. I thought that at times yesterday we did some good things with both our pressing and finding players in space in their half but let ourselves down due to the whole team not getting involved in the press or taking the right positions. Liverpool didn't suffer from this because they have been training and playing in their system for over 2 years now. It also seemed to me that when Liverpool's fullbacks attacked we looked outnumbered and in trouble, whereas when our fullbacks pushed forward, Liverpool had a much better defensive shape and didn't look troubled at all. Again I think this comes from the players knowing what positions to take up both when in and out of possession.

Yesterday's game specifically though I think we were just carrying too many players....

Dier looked like what he is (a young, inexperienced centre half being asked to play right back without any help from his midfield).

Capoue was desperately unsuited to that type of game as he was (or should I say is) far to slow and immobile to get close to Sterling and snuff out the player who was their main attacking threat and then not skilfull enough to be able to play in a game where the opposition do not give him lots of time.

Kaboul is either injured physically or mentally (or maybe both). After watching him yesterday he simply cannot play for us again, I could put up with him being slow and cumbersome with limited touch if he was playing in a strong and imposing manner. But he didn't even give us anything physically - it was clear right from early on that he didn't fancy a physical battle with Balotelli - I just thank GHod that West Ham didn't have Andy Carroll fit for the opening game of the season as that could've been even more embarrassing.

Erickson didn't get anywhere near involved enough in the game. He needs to man up, improve his movement and demand the ball. If that doesn't happen and we want to persist with him then I think we should look to cease with the interchangeable 3 attacking midfielders and have Erickson playing on the left of the three where he should find a little more space than he is able to centrally (this also might help our defensive game with our attackers being a little clearer on who should track the opposition fullbacks runs).

The rest of those on the pitch were no better than average (perhaps with the exception of Rose - who I thought hardly put a foot wrong the whole game) and Adebayor who caused them a few problems despite a very limited service).

Some good points there

1. I've been going every week for the last 15 years and the main thing for me is that we dont have a leader.. At the moment when the chips are down we tend to just loose the plot. There's nobody telling others to pull their socks up and keep their heads up. The mentally is also v poor and has been since we bought the latest crop of players in last summer, none of them seem to care much about the Spurs shirt, not much fight.

2. Spine of the team. Looking at Lloris, Bentaleb/Capoue and Ade down the middle it currently doesnt fill me with solidality. Even Lloris yesterday started to panic and make strange decisions.

3. Centre midfield - We were like power puffs yesterday, cant remember many tackles and were out played. Sandro needs to come back in asap. We so miss his intensity and his desire translates to others. Perhaps he's not the best passer but he brings so much more, and when he plays our win percentage is so mch higher without him

4. When we had Modric he would control the game and tempo, he's never been replaced. Big error not buying Juan Moutinho few years ago as a replacement! We still could try and buy Miralem Pjanic who is top draw and would fill that role.

I think Poch knows we are weak in centre midfield hence the moves for Schneiderlin all summer and now he's bought Stambouli. Shame we didnt get Schneiderlin, i think we should have broke the bank.
 
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