We drop points against teams with 3 in central midfield

[Modric THFC]

We struggled again today when we were outnumbered in midfield.

Going back and looking at the games we didn't win (since the Stoke game)

Chelsea 0-1 A 4231
Palace 0-0 H 4141
Besikas 0-1 A 4141
Man Utd 0-0 H 352
Burnley 1-1 A Cup ?
Palace 1-2 A 4141
Leicester 1-2 H Cup 433
Sheff Utd 2-2 A 4141
Liverpool 2-3 A 3421
Fiorentina 1-1 H 352
West Ham 2-2 H 433

All were 3 man central midfields except Chelsea. Liverpool pretty much had 4 against us in the middle.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I don't 'like' it just very interesting. We weren't always able to pass around or through them today. In such games, could playing deeper and on the break work? In other words, we know we're going to lose some possession, so be ready to defend, let wham commit their midfielders forward (as they have to to support the lack of options up front), and then use the space vacated on the break.

 

[jts1882]

Don't most teams play three in midfield in some way?

For the correlation to hold, that stats needs to show that the teams we beat only had two in midfield.

 

[Modric THFC]

Don't most teams play three in midfield in some way?

For the correlation to hold, that stats needs to show that the teams we beat only had two in midfield.

Hull 2-1 A 4231
Partizan 1-0 H 451
Everton 2-1 H 4231
Swansea 2-1 A 4231
Saudi Sportswashing Machine 4-0 H 4231
Burnley 2-1 H 442
Leicester 2-1 A 4411
Chelsea 5-3 H 4231
Burnley 4-2 H 442
Sunderland 2-1 H 3412
Sheff Utd 1-0 H 4231
West Brom 3-0 A 442
Arsenal 2-1 H 433

All except Arsenal and Partizan. Sunderland is debatable.

 

[Maltese Falcon]

I don't think it that simple. It's not the number of players but their style of play.

Where we massively suffer is when the opposition harries and closes down our central defenders - which was the case in most of the games detailed in the first post. Then we get confused, frustrated and lose the plot.

 

[Modric THFC]

I don't think it that simple. It's not the number of players but their style of play.

Where we massively suffer is when the opposition harries and closes down our central defenders - which was the case in most of the games detailed in the first post. Then we get confused, frustrated and lose the plot.

When we are outnumbered in midfield our defenders don't have an out ball. Dier for instance hit it long a lot today.
I think without the ball being recycled quickly by Mason and Bentaleb the rest of the team suffers. They cant do that when they are outnumbered.

 

[Cochise]

I think perhaps that your argument might be a little simplistic, although solid as a starting point. The teams listed in the loss/draw column are not afraid to be direct in their play and are happy to play the low % long ball into area's that isolate our defenders into 1v1 situations. Long balls down the channels or quick switches make the most of how we narrow our formation when we press. We get outnumbered at the back post often too.

Bentaleb and Mason both harry players further up the field and we leave space infront of our back four, whilst Eriksen, Chadli and Lamela all tuck in an aweful lot when we press. We often get our rewards when we win back possession high up the field, but if the ball is hit long or wide early, the space that we have forfeited in the press is exploited. Today I noticed that quite often Bentaleb and Mason were both chasing players back towards the West Ham half. The ball would go long and even if we won the first battle, the ball would be picked up by a West Ham player in the space.

 

[Lilywhite]

Completely agree with the OP, assuming your general point is that we struggle when we're outnumbered in midfield.

Bentaleb is talented and Mason puts in an admirable amount of effort but there isn't enough quality in that duo to overcome many midfields in the top half of the Premier League or even at this stage the Europa. I don't know how we go about overcoming the problem but it is that - a problem. We're not much of a threat out wide but that's where we end up having to go when opposition midfielders squeeze us and that's where we tend to fudge up, be that through Townsend running the ball out of play or Lamela getting outmuscled.

I suppose the natural solution is to allocate a portion of this summer's funds towards eradicating the issue at hand. Until then, sacrificing an attacking player against the better teams, or just simply putting Dembele deeper in midfield alongside the other two, is the way to go if you ask me.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I think perhaps that your argument might be a little simplistic, although solid as a starting point. The teams listed in the loss/draw column are not afraid to be direct in their play and are happy to play the low % long ball into area's that isolate our defenders into 1v1 situations. Long balls down the channels or quick switches make the most of how we narrow our formation when we press. We get outnumbered at the back post often too.

Bentaleb and Mason both harry players further up the field and we leave space infront of our back four, whilst Eriksen, Chadli and Lamela all tuck in an aweful lot when we press. We often get our rewards when we win back possession high up the field, but if the ball is hit long or wide early, the space that we have forfeited in the press is exploited. Today I noticed that quite often Bentaleb and Mason were both chasing players back towards the West Ham half. The ball would go long and even if we won the first battle, the ball would be picked up by a West Ham player in the space.

Conchise is bang on here..... Pochettino's pressing game can be countered by opponents getting it forward long and early. I thought that Liverpool also resorted to this against us.... It nullifies 4 of our 5 midfield players and exposes the space in behind our fullbacks, pulling our central defenders out of position. I don't know whether true or not but it wouldn't surprise me if Pochettino's Southampton team also suffered against Allardyce's West Ham last season? He needs to find a way to counter their long ball tactic.... It may just be a case of sacrificing the Mason role and playing with two holding players or perhaps simply not pushing the fullbacks forward?

 

[Raziel]

Conchise is bang on here..... Pochettino's pressing game can be countered by opponents getting it forward long and early. I thought that Liverpool also resorted to this against us.... It nullifies 4 of our 5 midfield players and exposes the space in behind our fullbacks, pulling our central defenders out of position. I don't know whether true or not but it wouldn't surprise me if Pochettino's Southampton team also suffered against Allardyce's West Ham last season? He needs to find a way to counter their long ball tactic.... It may just be a case of sacrificing the Mason role and playing with two holding players or perhaps simply not pushing the fullbacks forward?

We have struggled against "ball over the top" "long diagonal ball play to runner" teams for quite some time.

route 1 against a pressing team is a valid tactic, if brick to watch (Pool plays like that all the time btw)

The best we have been this season against that is when Fazio plays (as he kills everything in the air)

 

[braineclipse]

We look (relatively speaking) better against teams that don't come to defend against us. Both when teams push up and press us very high up the pitch and when they sit very deep we struggle a lot more than when it's a more open game with both teams looking to attack a fair bit.

Anyone expecting us to easily turn it around against Allardyce's West Ham after they got their opening goal must not have had the immense displeasure of watching much "football" from his teams over the years.

Fiorentina is another example of the same. They came to play a fairly open and attacking game in the first half, but we completely dominated. So they switched it up at half time and were much more concerned with defending and keeping it tight and we struggled to open them up

 

[Modric THFC]

An update on this.

Fiorentina L 0-2 A 433
Chelsea L 0-2 A 433
Swansea W 3-2 H 433
QPR W 1-2 A 442
Man Utd L 3-0 A 4141
Leicester W 4-3 H 541
Burnely D 0-0 A 442
Aston Villa L 0-1 H 433

Thats 7/9 points against 2 man midfields and 3/15 against 3 man midfields.

 

[Finney Is Back]

An update on this.

Fiorentina L 0-2 A 433
Chelsea L 0-2 A 433
Swansea W 3-2 H 433
QPR W 1-2 A 442
Man Utd L 3-0 A 4141
Leicester W 4-3 H 541
Burnely D 0-0 A 442
Aston Villa L 0-1 H 433

Thats 7/9 points against 2 man midfields and 3/15 against 3 man midfields.

I think you probably put too much emphasis on formations.... For example I don't think the 5-4-1 that you stated Leicester's played against us was really significantly different to Villa's 4-3-3 or even Burnley's 4-4-2. I said it before and I'll say it again, I think our problem comes against teams who look to get it forward early, expose the space in behind our full backs and stretch our two centre halves.