Victimpool FC - Klopp leaving, grown men crying

[Rorschach]

The reason this is news today is because new documents have come to light showing that the police directly blamed drunken fans for what had happened, and said as much to the Prime Minister herself. As far as I am aware, that is the first piece of direct evidence that they ever said such a thing. That is newsworthy in itself and is of wider import than just the narrow matter of the disaster itself, since it is evidence of public bodies acting questionably.

This revelation comes after denial for donkey's years by the police that they were culpable on the day. That they were also gossiping to senior politicians only amplifies that unethical behaviour...Add in the wicked whispering campaigns by the media over the years, and it can explain why sensitivities are so raw on this.

It is also important to remember the context and time. Thatcher's 80's were a very divisive time, and the cops being in cahoots with the Tories against a Northern working class community is part of a wider narrative that many still say destroyed vast swathes of traditional British society. Whether that is true or not is beside the point, these perceptions persist amongst certain people of a certain generation and it is a big deal to them. It resonates beyond the narrow issue of the disaster itself.

Put if all together, and you have a toxic mix of death, politics, culture, class and geography. It is no wonder it has rumbled on so long, and to blame families today when hacks stick microphones in their faces looking for a comment and politicians make populist grunting noises hardly seems fair, and might even be emblematic of the very disdain the families have complained about for so long.

Good post

 

[Harry_Perkins]

you mean the 1984 european cup final in rome when Liverpool fans nearly caused a major riot and in 1985 when they did

Or how about the 1988 Semi-Final when Liverpool fans had the same end at Hillsborough.... and where no violence or anything of note happened? Meanwhile, hundreds of ticketless Spurs fans got into to the same end at Hillsborough in 1981 and DID crush and injured hundreds of their fellow fans. Sorry, this thing just isn't as simple as people like to make out.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

It was an accident basically. They happen. The human race is fallible. It's time everyone concerned just let the bloody thing go.

 

[Harry_Perkins]

It was an accident basically. They happen. The human race is fallible. It's time everyone concerned just let the bloody thing go.

This case could be made for tons of people currently behind bars for manslaughter and worst. Should they have just been let off and everyone forget about it then? That fella who fell asleep at the wheel and caused the Selby train crash, for example? It was an accident and he is just human, after all? If he'd just been let off and instead, the victims were blamed, I'm pretty sure the families of those who died would probably still be looking for justice today.

 

[scaramanga]

It is also important to remember the context and time. Thatcher's 80's were a very divisive time, and the cops being in cahoots with the Tories against a Northern working class community is part of a wider narrative that many still say destroyed vast swathes of traditional British society. Whether that is true or not is beside the point, these perceptions persist amongst certain people of a certain generation and it is a big deal to them. It resonates beyond the narrow issue of the disaster itself.

Of course it's not true. The police were doing their (very difficult) jobs whilst the "northern working class community" were rallying against any sign of authority they could find.

 

[scaramanga]

Errr.... nothing happened to Liverpool twice? Can you not see how the two events are widly different? One was caused by Liverpool hooligans, of which no big club in England had a shortage of at the time - the other was largely caused by the incompetance of South Yorkshire Police. The stuff about drunk fans turning up late without tickets was comprehensively debunked in the Taylor Report.

But why bother with that eh? Some randoms on a message board know better what happened than a (57 page!) report that took hundreds of witness statements and interviews and looked at every detail of what happened with intense scrutiny! Funny as well that they always seem to have an axe to grind about Liverpool? Yep, we should definitely take their word for what happened. LOL.

To leave out the massive culpability of the thousands of fans who tried to get into a match without a ticket is disingenuous at best.

 

[chancer]

Of course it's not true. The police were doing their (very difficult) jobs whilst the "northern working class community" were rallying against any sign of authority they could find.

Well Scara take it up with somebody who believes that, not with me who is just reporting on it, ok? Thanks.

 

[scaramanga]

Well Scara take it up with somebody who believes that, not with me who is just reporting on it, ok? Thanks.

My apologies then, I read that as you making the point as your own.

 

[sp61urs]

i'm far from the greatest fans of scousers but it could have been any big club in the 80s at hillsbrough that day - in fact there was severe crushing when we had the leppings lane terrace against wolves in 81. several dozen spurs fans were injured.

no one would ever let this go if you were on wrong end of it.

...the only difference was that there weren't Spurs Fans outside trying to 'rush the turnstile'...this was a Liverpool trademark throughout the late seventies early eighties and there were hundreds of them that used to travel all over Europe thieving and getting in to games without a ticket...What they can't accept 'cos they don't want to is that it was Liverpool Fans who killed Liverpool Fans...not the police.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

This case could be made for tons of people currently behind bars for manslaughter and worst. Should they have just been let off and everyone forget about it then? That fella who fell asleep at the wheel and caused the Selby train crash, for example? It was an accident and he is just human, after all? If he'd just been let off and instead, the victims were blamed, I'm pretty sure the families of those who died would probably still be looking for justice today.

How is that an accident? I am pretty certain the Liverpool fans shoving from the back (and I blame them a lot more than I blame the Police) weren't thinking to themselves they'd intentionally hurt those in front. We aren't talking about an isolated mistake here by ONE person, we're talking about a catalogue of circumstances that lead to a tragic outcome. Want to know who is really to blame for Hillsborogh? All them thugs claiming to be football fans who ruined our game for years with hooliganism. If it wasn't for them, they'd have been no fence.

And were you there? A lot of what is now being claimed to have been made up by the media most likely happened but on a much smaller scale than reported.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

...the only difference was that there weren't Spurs Fans outside trying to 'rush the turnstile'...this was a Liverpool trademark throughout the late seventies early eighties and there were hundreds of them that used to travel all over Europe thieving and getting in to games without a ticket...What they can't accept 'cos they don't want to is that it was Liverpool Fans who killed Liverpool Fans...not the police.

Bit like the riots last year. The Police are damned if they do, damned if they don't. But I doubt those Liverpool fans had any inkling of what may happen. It was a tragic accident. They happen. Yes people can be at fault, but in this case it will be impossible to prove who. No doubt that eventually someone will be held accountable or held up as a spacegoat.

 

[Baleforce]

both sides need to accept their failings in the tragedy and stop trying to get universal agreement that it was completely somebody else's fault

 

[nw7 yid]

It was an accident basically. They happen. The human race is fallible. It's time everyone concerned just let the bloody thing go.

Sounds like a very worrying way basis for a justice system.

 

[Yermiyahu]

both sides need to accept their failings in the tragedy and stop trying to get universal agreement that it was completely somebody else's fault

Scousers, always the victims. It's never their fault.

 

[lurker of old]

To leave out the massive culpability of the thousands of fans who tried to get into a match without a ticket is disingenuous at best.

To a degree i know where Moonlit is coming from. I heard Burnham on the radio and I found it grotesque that he absolutely, categorically refuses to put ANY blame on the ticketless fans, or to admit that booze played a part. Liverpool orthodoxy is that their fans were blameless.

Of course the over-crowding was the police's decision. ULTIMATELY it WAS a fatal decision for the police to allow the ticketless fans in, and the Police were to blame for that. I can understand why the police did it - to prevent a riot outside, but it was the cause of the overcrowding. So yes, ultimately the Police's fault, but I wish that the people of Liverpool (or at least the commentators) would accept that there had been a CULTURE of ticketless fans attending finals at home and abroad. As I understand it, getting in free was accepted as being a clever thing for a scally to do, so naturally there were a few thousand of them at Hillsborough. Unfortunately the senior Police officer that day had no experience of policing a Final and the result was a tragedy which will be remembered for hundreds of years.

 

[spitshine]

Scousers, always the victims. It's never their fault.

Exactly! Not many recall much remorse for the 39 Italians who were crushed at Heysel.

Liverpool got away with alot maybe it was because they were the kings of england and europe, and deemed themselves untouchable. But we ended up losing out due the disgrace of their fans.

As you say always the victims. They can remember Hillsbrough, especially dalglish, but you never hear him mention Heysel.
The Suarez affair - how stupid did Daliglish look wearing that t-shirt.

 

[parklane1]

Its strange that Liverpool have been involved in a couple of tragedies, i remember hearing a few fans on the radio talking about the last time they were in a Champs Lge final, they were asked do you have tickets for the game and they all said no, but we will get in anyway. Always the victims never the problem.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

The one thing to remember this was a tragedy, one nobody wants to ever see again. It's only natural for people to look for someone to blame but there are so many factors which were responsible and I don't believe there will ever be a conclusion which will be acceptable to all involved. I do agree with chancer's original posting that the politics of the time did ot help the situation and I know from personal experience that the South Yorkshire police force were heavyhanded when dealing with away fans (particularly "soft southerners").

 

[Sheikh Ma Nuggets]

Liverpool fans are still at it. My Director is a Liverpool fan, but he's one of the classier ones - not the 'cheeky-chappy' scum which follows that Club, like flies around brick. He was at Wembley for their Mickey Mouse Final in February, and said what ruined the occasion was seeing - in his words - "the same little tossers jumping the barriers and passing tickects back". He hates them with a passion as they're the ones who've brought a LOT of trouble onto that club down the years - forget the police, and whoever else they want to blame.

Easy way to define Liverpool FC? brick club, followed by gloryhunting tossers from the 70s; were Man Utd winning everything, they'd be 'fans' of them instead. Always makes me laugh when another year passes since they last won "their" title; and how I tinkled myself when United passed "their" record. fudging idiots.

 

[Steed Train]

Liverpool fans are still at it. My Director is a Liverpool fan, but he's one of the classier ones - not the 'cheeky-chappy' scum which follows that Club, like flies around brick. He was at Wembley for their Mickey Mouse Final in February, and said what ruined the occasion was seeing - in his words - "the same little tossers jumping the barriers and passing tickects back". He hates them with a passion as they're the ones who've brought a LOT of trouble onto that club down the years - forget the police, and whoever else they want to blame.

Easy way to define Liverpool FC? brick club, followed by gloryhunting tossers from the 70s; were Man Utd winning everything, they'd be 'fans' of them instead. Always makes me laugh when another year passes since they last won "their" title; and how I tinkled myself when United passed "their" record. fudging idiots.

Exactly, how many southern liverpool fans do you see in the young generation now? Not many! Always find the blokes in the City who "support" Liverpool don't know brick about football, you can tell as soon as the conversation goes further than Steven Gerrard their faces go blank