milo
Jack L. Jones
If we are just talking about trying to find a bargain or buying players that can be sold on at a profit then that is not moneyball. I just think that it is a buzz phrase that is being widely misused.
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Victimpool FC - Klopp leaving, grown men crying
- Thread starter southstand1882
- Start date
If we are just talking about trying to find a bargain or buying players that can be sold on at a profit then that is not moneyball. I just think that it is a buzz phrase that is being widely misused.
NewYorkSpurs
Steven Caulker
And it's not even about Arsenal.
GGyid
Stephen Clemence
(with apologies to Harr1984), Dalglish counts as an assist
Beats having 20 different threads for everything that happens.
There's an almost 300 page thread on the Emirates Marketing Project forum about us.
Btw, funny how quickly the mood changes on RAWK. A few days ago Rodgers was viewed as a universally disgraceful appointment for their illustrious club, now it's:
And finally:
Thank you!! Even Liverpool fans think so.
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BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
I think this will be a good appointment for Liverpool, but I don't think it's going to be the unmitigated success that propels them to a title challenge in 2 years (although it might...covering my bases there) and it's also not going to be the monumental fudge up because he's inexperienced/because FSG are going to stick him with loads of statistically good but actually brick players. I think they will be up there, challenging for 4th if everything goes well, but Brendan Rodgers passing philosophy isn't going to suddenly turn their existing squad of players into unbeatable machines. It's a good system, but all the clubs that are consistently at the top have good systems too, so what he will do is make them compete. It won't neccessarily make them better than us or any of their direct challengers.
On the one hand, he will be good for them because A) he can sign a player that fits perfectly into the system he wants. He doesn't neccesarily need a DOF to do that. He picked out Vorm not because he was the best goalkeeper around and it was an obvious purchase, but because he had very specific skills that he needed in a goalkeeper. And B) if he can get Swansea's players having the third best possession overall in the league, then with Liverpool players he must surely be able to get better results given that they should be better individually and therefore likely to convert more chances and create more goalscoring opportunities because of their superior talent.
But on the other hand, it will be interesting to see how guys like Gerrard take to being told to playing a certain way. He loves to knock a random hollywood pass to absolutely no-one now and again, as well as run around out of position in order to do everything. I think at first there will be a nice easy going truce between Rodgers and Gerrard, just like with Terry and AVB, as the player gives the new manager a chance to see what they've got. But what will happen when Rodgers gets tinkled off with Gerrard doing what he wants and not playing to the system? Is he going to go up against him? Is he going to get mad? I'm not saying Gerrard would delibrately not listen, but on the pitch instinct will take over, and players will do what they think they are naturally good at. I'd guess that one of the reasons managers from small clubs struggle sometimes is because at the small club, everything they built was their own doing. They bought each player to fit perfectly into the system and the player respects the manager because that player is playing the best football of his career in this system that was designed to get the best out of him. You go to the big club, and you have these existing egos, and existing people that already like doing things a certain way. Gerrard is not going to be Joe Allen, who will just listen and nod along if he disagrees. What will happen if there becomes a clash? Someone will have to win.
The other point is that Andy Carrol, the ?ú35M striker won't exactly fit the Rodgers mould. He can do well enough with the ball on the floor, and it's not as if Danny Graham is somehow much better than Carrol, but Carrol played the best football of his career at Saudi Sportswashing Machine in a system designed for him. He could be a battering ram, get on the end of crosses and be a nuisance. He isn't going to be subtle and patient. He can hold the ball up but I'd guess he'd also need to be quite mobile and I'm not sure he is nimble enough to play in the tight spaces that he will inevitably have to come up against.
A final point is that the aura of what Rodgers acheived with Swansea is 'Holy fudge! Swansea are knocking it around nicely aren't they?' but that isn't really going to be the case at Liverpool. Yes they will knock it around nicely too, but that won't be enough. They will need to win games. Do they have the players to play the Rodgers way? I'm sure some of them can, and I'm sure he will bring in some of his own. Reina, Enrique, Johnson, Lucas, Henderson and Suarez I'd say should be able to play it without much problem. But Gerrard and Carrol I'm not sure fit into it too well, and it won't be as easy as just casting them off. I'm sure they will give it a good go, but maybe there will be teething problems. Maybe they will try and fit into his system because they know it can work, but instinct can take over. One of the good things about Harry's style and lack of too many instructions is that he lets the players play to their instinct, and picks a team that should naturally compliment itself. And that's a way of doing well. Doing is the Rodgers way is another good way of doing it, but you need to have the players to play the system, and they should be natural fits. Otherwise instinct will take over, or they will just be surpressing what makes them good players. I'm sure they will all give it a good go at the start, but when the initial clashes start to creep in, I wonder what will happen?
I really rate Rodgers, and I think most managers, if they were given time and money to build the side they wanted, could get success. But when a manager has to come in and pander to existing egos, it complicates things. Especially if that ego is at odds with the manager, or when the player's natural instinct is at odds with what the manager wants to implement. In a rational world, if there were clashes, you'd say remove all the obstacles to the manager doing his job, so that he can properly plan for the future. But in the real world, that isn't the case. You can't just move on Gerrard because the guy from Swansea didn't get on with him. I know I'm inventing this all in my head, but I'm just speaking hypothetically. Maybe they get on like a house on fire. But maybe Gerrard doesn't fancy learning a new way of playing this late in his career. But maybe Rodgers could ride out a storm of the first couple of years (if there is one) by getting Liverpool back in the top 6, and then Gerrard can logically be phased out. But if he doesn't last, then it could happen. I'm sure Chelsea had the best intentions of backing AVB, but in the end, if John Terry doesn't like to be embarassed because his lack of pace is awfully exposed by a high line then that's going to create a clash. And we know who won that.
On the one hand, he will be good for them because A) he can sign a player that fits perfectly into the system he wants. He doesn't neccesarily need a DOF to do that. He picked out Vorm not because he was the best goalkeeper around and it was an obvious purchase, but because he had very specific skills that he needed in a goalkeeper. And B) if he can get Swansea's players having the third best possession overall in the league, then with Liverpool players he must surely be able to get better results given that they should be better individually and therefore likely to convert more chances and create more goalscoring opportunities because of their superior talent.
But on the other hand, it will be interesting to see how guys like Gerrard take to being told to playing a certain way. He loves to knock a random hollywood pass to absolutely no-one now and again, as well as run around out of position in order to do everything. I think at first there will be a nice easy going truce between Rodgers and Gerrard, just like with Terry and AVB, as the player gives the new manager a chance to see what they've got. But what will happen when Rodgers gets tinkled off with Gerrard doing what he wants and not playing to the system? Is he going to go up against him? Is he going to get mad? I'm not saying Gerrard would delibrately not listen, but on the pitch instinct will take over, and players will do what they think they are naturally good at. I'd guess that one of the reasons managers from small clubs struggle sometimes is because at the small club, everything they built was their own doing. They bought each player to fit perfectly into the system and the player respects the manager because that player is playing the best football of his career in this system that was designed to get the best out of him. You go to the big club, and you have these existing egos, and existing people that already like doing things a certain way. Gerrard is not going to be Joe Allen, who will just listen and nod along if he disagrees. What will happen if there becomes a clash? Someone will have to win.
The other point is that Andy Carrol, the ?ú35M striker won't exactly fit the Rodgers mould. He can do well enough with the ball on the floor, and it's not as if Danny Graham is somehow much better than Carrol, but Carrol played the best football of his career at Saudi Sportswashing Machine in a system designed for him. He could be a battering ram, get on the end of crosses and be a nuisance. He isn't going to be subtle and patient. He can hold the ball up but I'd guess he'd also need to be quite mobile and I'm not sure he is nimble enough to play in the tight spaces that he will inevitably have to come up against.
A final point is that the aura of what Rodgers acheived with Swansea is 'Holy fudge! Swansea are knocking it around nicely aren't they?' but that isn't really going to be the case at Liverpool. Yes they will knock it around nicely too, but that won't be enough. They will need to win games. Do they have the players to play the Rodgers way? I'm sure some of them can, and I'm sure he will bring in some of his own. Reina, Enrique, Johnson, Lucas, Henderson and Suarez I'd say should be able to play it without much problem. But Gerrard and Carrol I'm not sure fit into it too well, and it won't be as easy as just casting them off. I'm sure they will give it a good go, but maybe there will be teething problems. Maybe they will try and fit into his system because they know it can work, but instinct can take over. One of the good things about Harry's style and lack of too many instructions is that he lets the players play to their instinct, and picks a team that should naturally compliment itself. And that's a way of doing well. Doing is the Rodgers way is another good way of doing it, but you need to have the players to play the system, and they should be natural fits. Otherwise instinct will take over, or they will just be surpressing what makes them good players. I'm sure they will all give it a good go at the start, but when the initial clashes start to creep in, I wonder what will happen?
I really rate Rodgers, and I think most managers, if they were given time and money to build the side they wanted, could get success. But when a manager has to come in and pander to existing egos, it complicates things. Especially if that ego is at odds with the manager, or when the player's natural instinct is at odds with what the manager wants to implement. In a rational world, if there were clashes, you'd say remove all the obstacles to the manager doing his job, so that he can properly plan for the future. But in the real world, that isn't the case. You can't just move on Gerrard because the guy from Swansea didn't get on with him. I know I'm inventing this all in my head, but I'm just speaking hypothetically. Maybe they get on like a house on fire. But maybe Gerrard doesn't fancy learning a new way of playing this late in his career. But maybe Rodgers could ride out a storm of the first couple of years (if there is one) by getting Liverpool back in the top 6, and then Gerrard can logically be phased out. But if he doesn't last, then it could happen. I'm sure Chelsea had the best intentions of backing AVB, but in the end, if John Terry doesn't like to be embarassed because his lack of pace is awfully exposed by a high line then that's going to create a clash. And we know who won that.
yiddo2786
Steed Malbranque
Moneyball doesn't work in football. It's fairly simple why really, it's like turn based games vs time based games. Take Beane signing Hatteberg. Hatteberg will get on base roughly every 3 times he bats. He'll do that on a freezing night in New York or on a boiling day in Arizona. He'll do that batting leadoff or batting 9th. He'll do that if the team are winning hugely, losing hugely or the game is close. He'll do that if the rest of the lineup is great or if it's awful. The repetitive 'turn based' element (every pitch) means stats are relevant and useful. The problem with measuring Downing's cross accuracy, as an example, is that every crossing situation is different, unlikely to be replicated and the outcome depends on factors outside his control (the quality of defending, the positions of who is in the box, which players are in the box, the quality and quantity of the passes to him, etc). Therefore, using Downing's crossing accuracy and 'dribbles per game' at Villa is no indication of what he'll do in a completely new scenario at Liverpool. When judging players in football, there is no substitute for eyeballing quality.
Also, just because the Red Sox play baseball, it doesn't mean they play 'moneyball'. fudge, we signed free agents Adrian Gonzalez and Carl Crawford last year to deals worth $154m and $142m respectively over 7 years. That's not using sabremetrics to find undervalued stars, that's choosing the best players on the market and signing them for insane amounts of money. The Red Sox have the 4th highest payroll in baseball ($146m). Let's hope Brendan Rodgers is a Bobby Valentine.
Also, just because the Red Sox play baseball, it doesn't mean they play 'moneyball'. fudge, we signed free agents Adrian Gonzalez and Carl Crawford last year to deals worth $154m and $142m respectively over 7 years. That's not using sabremetrics to find undervalued stars, that's choosing the best players on the market and signing them for insane amounts of money. The Red Sox have the 4th highest payroll in baseball ($146m). Let's hope Brendan Rodgers is a Bobby Valentine.
Enter the Pitbull
Luke Young
What I find amusing is the fact a lot of the journos are already writing about how Rodgers is "exactly the kind of progressive manager Henry always wanted from the start".
If that's the case then why appoint that fossil Dalglish in the first place?
If that's the case then why appoint that fossil Dalglish in the first place?
Howard Webb
Clive Wilson
as far as I can tell, this marks the end of the Gerrard/Carragher era which began its decline when they finished 2nd by 2 points and hasnt been brought back to life in any real sense. Im genuinely looking forward to seeing Rodgers deal with egos as others as mentioned by others, because they fundamentally have come to the end of their useful title winning days on the pitch.
This season just finished, plus the coming one, will be transitional for the entire league. a whole generation of 2000-2012 players are finishing up - scholes, giggs, carragher, gerrard, king, terry, lampard, barry, parker, drogba, rio, all giants in their sides in the uk who dominate marketing deals and global image rights and are proven winners time and time again.
what this means for rodgers, whos years ahead of the game in this sense by developing a style with superb young players and comes to liverpool really at the perfect time, is he will have to make the tough decisions that the big coaches will also have to make. we all saw AVB suffer trying to do this wwith that CFC squads on its last chance before a drastic rebuild is required and i dont think Di Matteo is the man to make the rebuild. He could be but he strikes me as very lucky to have players desperate to win one last time before they get overtaken by younger, faster squad players.
a new era is dawning across the league.
This season just finished, plus the coming one, will be transitional for the entire league. a whole generation of 2000-2012 players are finishing up - scholes, giggs, carragher, gerrard, king, terry, lampard, barry, parker, drogba, rio, all giants in their sides in the uk who dominate marketing deals and global image rights and are proven winners time and time again.
what this means for rodgers, whos years ahead of the game in this sense by developing a style with superb young players and comes to liverpool really at the perfect time, is he will have to make the tough decisions that the big coaches will also have to make. we all saw AVB suffer trying to do this wwith that CFC squads on its last chance before a drastic rebuild is required and i dont think Di Matteo is the man to make the rebuild. He could be but he strikes me as very lucky to have players desperate to win one last time before they get overtaken by younger, faster squad players.
a new era is dawning across the league.
BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
Agreed. Gonna be a very interesting time. Will be interesting to see if there is a clash between Rodgers and some of the established Liverpool stars that think they know better and can't take to it, and it will be quite funny if it does. Because that means if Rodgers was sacked because of it, two coaches that have had great success playing a style of football that most fans of the top clubs would be very happy with, and with inferior players, would have been hounded out of their clubs by old pros that can't accept their time in the sun has gone. And the ironic thing is the fans of those clubs will call the manager clueless, unable to handle the egos and be general figures of ridicule. Then they'll be wondering why in two years and when their big stars have retired that they have had season upon season of transition while there is a desperate attempt to squeeze the last ounces of glory out of the veterans.
No doubt Terry and Lampard feel vindicated for what they did to AVB, so good for them. But that rebuilding job needed to be done, and without an amazing amount of luck that club wouldn't be in the Champions League this season.
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
The one that really tinkled me off with Lampard was his interview just after AVB was sacked.
Broadly it was well intended (or so it seemed) and he didnt seem to be sticking the boot in, however there was a line that basically said
"I would accept being left out of the team in favour of up and coming talent if I could see they were better than me"
As in, he would have supported what AVB was doing if AVB had a player coming in Frank deemed worthy. Thats just not his decision! And in an article where he was essentially trying to be gratious he reveals the very root of what is wrong with Chelsea.
Broadly it was well intended (or so it seemed) and he didnt seem to be sticking the boot in, however there was a line that basically said
"I would accept being left out of the team in favour of up and coming talent if I could see they were better than me"
As in, he would have supported what AVB was doing if AVB had a player coming in Frank deemed worthy. Thats just not his decision! And in an article where he was essentially trying to be gratious he reveals the very root of what is wrong with Chelsea.
Rorschach
Sonny Walters
This could be the making of Liverpool or a complete disaster which will derail Liverpool even further, not to mention killing Rodgers career too. If things are going wrong after half a season then the fans will be on his case.
I'm sure if given time and money Rodgers could turn Liverpool into the next Swansea, but it's a big ask
I'm sure if given time and money Rodgers could turn Liverpool into the next Swansea, but it's a big ask
Wriggly
Banned
This could be the making of Liverpool or a complete disaster which will derail Liverpool even further, not to mention killing Rodgers career too. If things are going wrong after half a season then the fans will be on his case.
I'm sure if given time and money Rodgers could turn Liverpool into the next Swansea, but it's a big ask
I hope so, It would be funny to see Liverpool finish 11th.
Wriggly
Banned
I agree with all that, yet the go and win the CL. How is any of that fair ? They are full of ****s, we have nice guys. Just for once, I'd like to have some ****s and win something.
a spur from swansea
Naybet
As someone whose seen Swansea play quite a few times here and when Rodgers was in charge over the last few years,is that the style of play players will need to buy into,i can clearly see that an AVB/Chelsea scenario will be played out up in liverpool in the first few months,the press will report a fall out ,players maybe on the way out,the usual talksport brick that they will spout out,about clashes etc,personally i think he'll do ok but like i said he will need be given time,swansea have played the way they do for years even before he came so to put his ideas across to a side that haven't played that way will take time.
Funniest. Joke. EVER.