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Spurs up to 5th in All-Time Premier League Table

THFC6061

THFC6061

Paul Robinson
Tottenham's 2-1 win last time out against Queens Park Rangers has meant that our total points haul during the Premier League Era is now 1,094 points, which has overtaken Aston Villa by a point and put us up to 5th place in the All-Time Table.

However, looking at the average points won per match only gives us 7th place.

Full details here...

All-Time Premier League Table 1992-93 to 2012-13
 
Considering the steaming pile of horse brick that was the 90s and early 00s, that isn't half bad!
 
I see we retain our position as the only club to concede 1000 PL goals and should keep it for a few months longer.
 
IBTL!

http://www.glory-glory.co.uk/showthread.php?2737-Points-Table&p=214013#post214013


23rd September 2012, 19:41 #3
Spur of the moment
Member
Join Date
Jan 2012
Posts
333
Re: Points Table
Originally Posted by THFC6061
We're now just one point behind where we were last season when we got fourth place.

Tottenham Hotspur Premier League Points Won 1992-93 to 2012-13
Also, after bagging those three hairy points today we've finally moved up into 5th ahead of Villa in the All-Time Premier League Table ...

http://www.statto.com/football/stats...table/pl-years

(Mate of mine happens to be a Villa fan so it matters!)[/I]
 
anyone's got a table that goes back to the beginning of the FA? i know its a different league and point system, but I wonder how it would look if we considered the entire football history, and which clubs are really at the top. Cup wins are one thing, but total wins is probably a better gauge of consistency.
 
metalgear said:
anyone's got a table that goes back to the beginning of the FA? i know its a different league and point system, but I wonder how it would look if we considered the entire football history, and which clubs are really at the top. Cup wins are one thing, but total wins is probably a better gauge of consistency.
Click to expand...

I haven't updated it yet to include this season's games, but this should give you a pretty good idea....

All-Time Top Flight Points Table 1888-89 to 2011-12
 
metalgear said:
you, sir, are incredible with your stats.

pretty much the same story... we're top 5, neck-and-neck with chelsea on a points per game basis.
Click to expand...

Thanks! - That table has now been updated to include the games played during season 2012-13.
 
metalgear said:
you, sir, are incredible with your stats.

pretty much the same story... we're top 5, neck-and-neck with chelsea on a points per game basis.
Click to expand...

Only if you exclude Wimbledon and Swansea with a games cut-off.

There are several ways of doing the table. That one uses actual points gained, i.e. three points per win after 1981(?) and two points per win afterwards. While it has a historical accuracy, its not a good statistical metric for comparing results objectively. It biases the table towards teams with better recent history, notably Chelsea and Leeds and against teams with strong early history (Everton, Villa). That's why Wimbledon and Swansea do well in the pts per game as all their wins were in the 3 point era.

An alternative is to be consistent with the method, using either 2pts per win or 3pts per win. With both those methods we are still just ahead of Chelsea (4 and 31 pts respectively), although both are now behind Saudi Sportswashing Machine and City on totals and behind Leeds on points per game. Also both put Everton in second instead of Arsenal on totals.

I would like to see a table since we joined the league or since it became a truly national league in the early 20s. Its a shame the websites that have the databases don't allow custom all-time tables.
 
jts1882 said:
Only if you exclude Wimbledon and Swansea with a games cut-off.

There are several ways of doing the table. That one uses actual points gained, i.e. three points per win after 1981(?) and two points per win afterwards. While it has a historical accuracy, its not a good statistical metric for comparing results objectively. It biases the table towards teams with better recent history, notably Chelsea and Leeds and against teams with strong early history (Everton, Villa). That's why Wimbledon and Swansea do well in the pts per game as all their wins were in the 3 point era.

An alternative is to be consistent with the method, using either 2pts per win or 3pts per win. With both those methods we are still just ahead of Chelsea (4 and 31 pts respectively), although both are now behind Saudi Sportswashing Machine and City on totals and behind Leeds on points per game. Also both put Everton in second instead of Arsenal on totals.

I would like to see a table since we joined the league or since it became a truly national league in the early 20s. Its a shame the websites that have the databases don't allow custom all-time tables.
Click to expand...

Here is the All-Time Top Flight Table using 2 points for a win for all matches played from 1888-89 to 2012-13...

2 POINTS FOR WIN
1 Liverpool 4,539
2 Everton 4,528
3 Arsenal 4,480
4 Manchester United 4,199
5 Aston Villa 4,156
6 Emirates Marketing Project 3,379
7 Saudi Sportswashing Machine 3,334
8 Tottenham Hotspur 3,289
9 Chelsea 3,285
10 Sunderland 3,167
11 West Bromwich Albion 2,784
12 Blackburn Rovers 2,685
13 Bolton Wanderers 2,675
14 Sheffield Wednesday 2,572
15 Wolverhampton Wanderers 2,432
16 Derby County 2,397
17 Sheffield United 2,302
18 Middlesbrough 2,227
19 Leeds United 2,215
20 Nottingham Forest 2,149
21 West Ham United 2,054
22 Burnley 2,037
23 Birmingham City 2,031
24 Stoke City 1,938
25 Preston North End 1,732
26 Leicester City 1,706
27 Southampton 1,321
28 Portsmouth 1,290
29 Huddersfield Town 1,277
30 Coventry City 1,256
31 Blackpool 1,112
32 Ipswich Town 1,069
33 Charlton Athletic 963
34 Notts County 935
35 Norwich City 829
36 Queens Park Rangers 806
37 Fulham 805
38 Bury 738
39 Cardiff City 602
40 Luton Town 594
41 Wimbledon 543
42 Oldham Athletic 447
43 Grimsby Town 431
44 Crystal Palace 430
45 Bradford City 430
46 Bristol City 322
47 Watford 285
48 Wigan Athletic 222
49 Brentford 198
50 Brighton and Hove Albion 142
51 Swansea City 119
52 Bradford Park Avenue 107
53 Accrington 103
54 Oxford United 92
55 Reading 66
56 Millwall 60
57 Hull City 51
58 Northampton Town 33
59 Darwen 30
60 Carlisle United 29
61 Barnsley 25
62 Swindon Town 25
63 Leyton Orient 21
64 Glossop North End 18
 
One thing I find slightly surprising is the number of teams that have played in the PL compared to the top flight all time (45 v 64). I would have expected a bigger difference.
 
THFC6061 said:
Here is the All-Time Top Flight Table using 2 points for a win for all matches played from 1888-89 to 2012-13...

2 POINTS FOR WIN
1 Liverpool 4,539
2 Everton 4,528
3 Arsenal 4,480
4 Manchester United 4,199
5 Aston Villa 4,156
6 Emirates Marketing Project 3,379
7 Saudi Sportswashing Machine 3,334
8 Tottenham Hotspur 3,289
9 Chelsea 3,285
10 Sunderland 3,167
11 West Bromwich Albion 2,784
12 Blackburn Rovers 2,685
13 Bolton Wanderers 2,675
14 Sheffield Wednesday 2,572
15 Wolverhampton Wanderers 2,432
16 Derby County 2,397
17 Sheffield United 2,302
18 Middlesbrough 2,227
19 Leeds United 2,215
20 Nottingham Forest 2,149
21 West Ham United 2,054
22 Burnley 2,037
23 Birmingham City 2,031
24 Stoke City 1,938
25 Preston North End 1,732
26 Leicester City 1,706
27 Southampton 1,321
28 Portsmouth 1,290
29 Huddersfield Town 1,277
30 Coventry City 1,256
31 Blackpool 1,112
32 Ipswich Town 1,069
33 Charlton Athletic 963
34 Notts County 935
35 Norwich City 829
36 Queens Park Rangers 806
37 Fulham 805
38 Bury 738
39 Cardiff City 602
40 Luton Town 594
41 Wimbledon 543
42 Oldham Athletic 447
43 Grimsby Town 431
44 Crystal Palace 430
45 Bradford City 430
46 Bristol City 322
47 Watford 285
48 Wigan Athletic 222
49 Brentford 198
50 Brighton and Hove Albion 142
51 Swansea City 119
52 Bradford Park Avenue 107
53 Accrington 103
54 Oxford United 92
55 Reading 66
56 Millwall 60
57 Hull City 51
58 Northampton Town 33
59 Darwen 30
60 Carlisle United 29
61 Barnsley 25
62 Swindon Town 25
63 Leyton Orient 21
64 Glossop North End 18
Click to expand...

Excellent work. However, would prefer if was based on points per game. Given we were not elected to the League until 1908, the top clubs clubs in that table have all had up to 20 seasons more to amass their totals.
 
Spur of the moment said:
Excellent work. However, would prefer if was based on points per game. Given we were not elected to the League until 1908, the top clubs clubs in that table have all had up to 20 seasons more to amass their totals.
Click to expand...

I've created a cumulative league table web page. The idea is to allow cumulative tables for any range of seasons and to sort it in various ways. This is just a test version so have a look. You can change the seasons and sort parameter from the table at the bottom of the page.

So the points per game table you wanted (excluding this season): http://www.spurs1882.org/SpursDB/Le...8-1889 season&season2=2011-12 Season&sort=Ppg

Table starting from 1908 when Spurs joined the league (sorted by % win): http://www.spurs1882.org/SpursDB/Le...908-09 season&season2=2011-12 Season&sort=pcW

Table during Nicholson's reign (1958-1974) (sorted by total points): http://www.spurs1882.org/SpursDB/Le...958-59 Season&season2=1974-75 Season&sort=Pts

The last one came as a surprise to me. I hadn't realised that we won more total points than any other team during the Nicholson era, which includes Busby's United, Shankly's Liverpool and Revie's Leeds.
 
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jts1882 said:
I've created a cumulative league table web page. The idea is to allow cumulative tables for any range of seasons and to sort it in various ways. This is just a test version so have a look. You can change the seasons and sort parameter from the table at the bottom of the page.

So the points per game table you wanted (excluding this season): http://www.spurs1882.org/SpursDB/Le...8-1889 season&season2=2011-12 Season&sort=Ppg

Table starting from 1908 when Spurs joined the league (sorted by % win): http://www.spurs1882.org/SpursDB/Le...908-09 season&season2=2011-12 Season&sort=pcW

Table during Nicholson's reign (1958-1974) (sorted by total points): http://www.spurs1882.org/SpursDB/Le...958-59 Season&season2=1974-75 Season&sort=Pts

The last one came as a surprise to me. I hadn't realised that we won more total points than any other team during the Nicholson era, which includes Busby's United, Shankly's Liverpool and Revie's Leeds.
Click to expand...

Brilliant thanks. Am liking that second table (from 1908) a lot better! Interesting that Leeds have a higher points-per-game average than us in this table. I imagine that's because they accrued the majority of their wins in the modern three-points-per-win era.

Also, first time I've ever seen a comparative table spanning Nicholson's era. Like you I'm both surprised and well gratified to see he comes out on top. Has to be conceded though that Busby's era began something like a decade earlier than Sir Bill's, when United were often either champions, runners-up or not far off. I guess if you put their complete reigns side-by-side, Sir Matt's would come out on top.
 
Spur of the moment said:
Brilliant thanks. Am liking that second table (from 1908) a lot better! Interesting that Leeds have a higher points-per-game average than us in this table. I imagine that's because they accrued the majority of their wins in the modern three-points-per-win era.
Click to expand...

No, Leeds have a higher points per game even when using 2pts per win or 3pts per win for the whole period (I will add these as table options later, when I add them to main part of my Spurs site, www.spurs1882.org). Leeds spent more seasons in lower divisions but when in the top tier have had some very good sides (late 60s/70s, ca 2000).

Spur of the moment said:
Also, first time I've ever seen a comparative table spanning Nicholson's era. Like you I'm both surprised and well gratified to see he comes out on top. Has to be conceded though that Busby's era began something like a decade earlier than Sir Bill's, when United were often either champions, runners-up or not far off. I guess if you put their complete reigns side-by-side, Sir Matt's would come out on top.
Click to expand...

Yes, over the whole Busby era (1945-1969) he was clearly the top manager. However, we were clear second on points per game (Table 1946-1969).

I wouldn't try and diminish Sir Matt, definitely one of the greats, if not the greatest, and certainly the best United manager. We shouldn't forget he lost most of his team at Munich at the beginning of the Nicholson period. He built three distinct title winning sides (late 40s, Mid-50s and late-60s)

I did want to highlight how well Nicholson did when compared to the recognised greats, notably Shankly and Busby. He also had other good managers like Cullis and Revie to contend with and it was a more competitive era. Nicholson doesn't get wider recognition because he only won one title when he should have won more. We were top for most if the previous season (until last three games) and top for whole 1960-61 season (look at these graphs on Statto.com). Over the whole Busby era (1945-1969) we were clear second on points per game
 
Everton were founder member in 1888. They had played 662 when by the time we first played in the First Division in 1909, as had Villa and Blackburn. Everton also have the second longest run in the top division (since early/mid-1950s and they earnt their promotion), while we spent much of the 20s and 30s in the Second Division.
 
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