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Long-term and short-term thinking

elltrev

Tim Sherwood
Everyone has this thinking the wrong way round. Pochettino and the current team have literally decades of previous disappointments being hung around their necks, and then are given less than 5 years to overcome that and turn it around. fudge that. They deserve the opposite. A focus on what Spurs have achieved since they’ve joined, and years’ more opportunity to keep improving on that without the constant pressure and harking on about our bricky past.

We can’t stop pundits, journalists and other fans being clams and macarons about this, but let’s not start doing the same ourselves. Free the current staff and players of the burdens of the past, and give them time to achieve what they are clearly en route to achieving. Let’s not be scarred, defeatist little backward-facing bitches.

COYS
 
I am total confident in the guy. He's not perfection itself (he can be at times!) Poch is human and has strengths and weaknesses like everyone. But what he does time and again, is analyse, put in place targets, and improve turning players into much better footballers.

My only criticisms are he analyses over foresight (but who has a crystal ball? Maybe the best do. They can model, think ahead, plan), and isn't always on his toes in games - able to see things and rapidly change something. But the latter I think he's addressing. Some subs are happening quicker, and who knows about the first point re. foresight. No doubt Poch does plan for likely game scenarios, but I think its an area that separates the best mangers. To be able to see your teams forms, and the form of your opponent, and prepare for a likely game scenario. I think Poch does do this, he aced Madrid and Juve.

In short he's still fuking awesome. Is still developing himself, and we have to get behind him.
 
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I am total confident in the guy. He's not perfection itself (he can be at times!) Poch is human and has strengths and weaknesses like everyone. But what he does time and again, is analyse, put in place targets, and improve turning players into much better footballers.

My only criticisms are he analyses over foresight (but who has a crystal ball? Maybe the best do. They can model, think ahead, plan), and isn't always on his toes in games - able to see things and rapidly change something. But the latter I think he's addressing. Some subs are happening quicker, and who knows about the first point re. foresight. No doubt Poch does plan for likely game scenarios, but I think its an area that separates the best mangers. To be able to see your teams forms, and the form of your opponent, and prepare for a likely game scenario. I think Poch does do this, he aced Madrid and Juve.

In short he's still fuking awesome. Is still developing himself, and we have to get behind him.

He is.
I hope he stays for at least a few more years. Shanks was at Liverpool for a decade and rebuilt them from the ground up. I wonder if Poch will do the same? I believe he will as he already in the process of doing so, despite a far less level playing field...


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
Sigh.

So, extrapolating this to its extreme, the team has a timespan of *decades* to actually win something - because we have been through decades of failure, and it's only fair that they get *decades* of patience to see if we can overcome that failure.

Of course, that's ridiculous. But I'd suggest that this sort of thing (long-term thinking on that scale) is also quixotic - because modern football doesn't work like that, and because every year we end up sitting on our hands watching everyone else happily canter to titles and trophies is another year we fall behind relative to everyone else.

Both points feed into this, though - nobody lasts that long now, and even a man who has won three league titles and seven FA Cups with a potential Europa League still to come is being shunted out because his fans aren't happy. That man has won almost as many major trophies as our *club* has - in its 136-year *history*. He took our lovely neighbors from being utterly detestable footballing troglodytes to being relative footballing aesthetes - he tried to give them an identity in the eyes of the world that once belonged exclusively to us. And he largely succeeded in that.

And, despite that, he is being pushed out.

That is modern football - and, equally, the players know that too. Success is what matters, success or money. Almost no player stays at a club for anything else these days. And players themselves grow tired of managers much, much quicker than they have any right to - an eventuality made even more certain, I'd suggest, if they never win anything despite being worked relentlessly at a level that other clubs wouldn't dream of touching.

So we don't have a decade, or decades, to sit and wait for this team and Poch to slowly, haltingly overcome their crippling fear of winning things and take that final step. Football moves fast, and this isn't possible. And every year we fail is another year we lose a Toby Alderweireld - a Danny Rose, and a Mousa Dembele. Either because of their unfulfilled ambitions, or because of their physical decline, or because we can't pay them the market rate for someone of their skill. So, every year will be a rebuilding job until we can either pay them enough to stay or win enough to convince them to stay.

But, if we can pay them enough to want them to stay, we can also pay other coaches and players better than them to come here. So then, what's the incentive in keeping them around in the first place?

Thus, we reach the reality that modern football foists upon us - if you want this group and this manager to build what you want them to build, they need to *win*. Not in ten years, not when they face League Two sides all the way to the final of a competition - now, or as soon as possible.

And if you don't like that, switch to another sport, because the old, more wholesome world of football died a long time ago. It died when clubs were wrenched from the hands of fans and placed into the waiting arms of financiers, gangsters and broadcasters - it died when twenty-two club chairmen in England sold themselves to create a commercial enterprise that traded sporting integrity for untold wealth.
 
Sigh.

So, extrapolating this to its extreme, the team has a timespan of *decades* to actually win something - because we have been through decades of failure, and it's only fair that they get *decades* of patience to see if we can overcome that failure.

Of course, that's ridiculous. But I'd suggest that this sort of thing (long-term thinking on that scale) is also quixotic - because modern football doesn't work like that, and because every year we end up sitting on our hands watching everyone else happily canter to titles and trophies is another year we fall behind relative to everyone else.

Both points feed into this, though - nobody lasts that long now, and even a man who has won three league titles and seven FA Cups with a potential Europa League still to come is being shunted out because his fans aren't happy. That man has won almost as many major trophies as our *club* has - in its 136-year *history*. He took our lovely neighbors from being utterly detestable footballing troglodytes to being relative footballing aesthetes - he tried to give them an identity in the eyes of the world that once belonged exclusively to us. And he largely succeeded in that.

And, despite that, he is being pushed out.

That is modern football - and, equally, the players know that too. Success is what matters, success or money. Almost no player stays at a club for anything else these days. And players themselves grow tired of managers much, much quicker than they have any right to - an eventuality made even more certain, I'd suggest, if they never win anything despite being worked relentlessly at a level that other clubs wouldn't dream of touching.

So we don't have a decade, or decades, to sit and wait for this team and Poch to slowly, haltingly overcome their crippling fear of winning things and take that final step. Football moves fast, and this isn't possible. And every year we fail is another year we lose a Toby Alderweireld - a Danny Rose, and a Mousa Dembele. Either because of their unfulfilled ambitions, or because of their physical decline, or because we can't pay them the market rate for someone of their skill. So, every year will be a rebuilding job until we can either pay them enough to stay or win enough to convince them to stay.

But, if we can pay them enough to want them to stay, we can also pay other coaches and players better than them to come here. So then, what's the incentive in keeping them around in the first place?

Thus, we reach the reality that modern football foists upon us - if you want this group and this manager to build what you want them to build, they need to *win*. Not in ten years, not when they face League Two sides all the way to the final of a competition - now, or as soon as possible.

And if you don't like that, switch to another sport, because the old, more wholesome world of football died a long time ago. It died when clubs were wrenched from the hands of fans and placed into the waiting arms of financiers, gangsters and broadcasters - it died when twenty-two club chairmen in England sold themselves to create a commercial enterprise that traded sporting integrity for untold wealth.

My point was about our attitude as Spurs fans. I get what you’re saying in general, but what do you think the implications should be for our attitude as fans?
 
Spurs fans attitudes aren’t the issue unless they influence professional players on the pitch
It’s the manager and players attitudes that matter

Yeah agreed. It's just that personally I can feel proud or ashamed of our fanbase, just as I can of our team. And I'd love to feel proud of the way we fans conduct ourselves in the face of any negativity that comes our way - by being rightfully positive and getting behind the manager and players, rather than joining any negative and narrow-minded bandwagon of pundits, journalists and/or other teams' fans.
 
Yeah agreed. It's just that personally I can feel proud or ashamed of our fanbase, just as I can of our team. And I'd love to feel proud of the way we fans conduct ourselves in the face of any negativity that comes our way - by being rightfully positive and getting behind the manager and players, rather than joining any negative and narrow-minded bandwagon of pundits, journalists and/or other teams' fans.

I’d give that some serious thought, most football fans are clams.
 
Yeah agreed. It's just that personally I can feel proud or ashamed of our fanbase, just as I can of our team. And I'd love to feel proud of the way we fans conduct ourselves in the face of any negativity that comes our way - by being rightfully positive and getting behind the manager and players, rather than joining any negative and narrow-minded bandwagon of pundits, journalists and/or other teams' fans.
Spurs fans and postive don’t go
It’s the expectation than the reaction that makes most negative
No spurs fan watching yesterday thought we were not good enough to win it before the game. But ALL afterwards will have been hurt and will know yet again that their is a spineless nature running through the club/team/manager
That needs addressing and the only answer I can think of (other than stupid risky wholesale changes) is to get in a player or two who has won something
 
Spurs fans and postive don’t go
It’s the expectation than the reaction that makes most negative
No spurs fan watching yesterday thought we werw not good enough to win it before the game. But ALL afterwards will have been hurt and will now yet again that their is a spineless nature running through the club/team/manager
That needs addressing and the only answer I can think of (other than stupid risky wholesale changes) is to get in a player or two who has won something

Yup - if Dembele was to go at the end of this season, fingers crossed we can get in an experienced, top class winner in central midfield. Cheeky bid for Modric? ;)
 
Yup - if Dembele was to go at the end of this season, fingers crossed we can get in an experienced, top class winner in central midfield. Cheeky bid for Modric? ;)

Why not
Dembele can be brilliant but can also be found wanting. Doesn’t seem to a halfway house for him
 
We need a fit young striker (Rashford would be ideal)
A replacement for Dembele and if Winks doesn’t get fit for August a replacement for him also.

There must be no sentiment envolved like with Vorm and Kane yesterday.

That is where Pochettino has to be stronger.
 
Why not
Dembele can be brilliant but can also be found wanting. Doesn’t seem to a halfway house for him

What would Mourinho or Pep do, ask yourself that in these cases. Maybe this is where the financial restrictions really come home to roost?
Now I don’t like the guy, but he is ruthless and the result is paramount. We need more of this from our apprentice manager, let us not forget the guy is still learning....
 
What would Mourinho or Pep do, ask yourself that in these cases. Maybe this is where the financial restrictions really come home to roost?
Now I don’t like the guy, but he is ruthless and the result is paramount. We need more of this from our apprentice manager.

They already knew how to win
Pep won plenty as a player (Poch hasn’t)
And Mou has won plenty as a manager
 
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