Levy's "harshly" sacked managers...

[SUIYHA]

Seeing as there's been a big fuss made recently about how trigger happy Levy is, how he doesn't give talented and well deserving managers time, I thought it might be worth looking at our managerial alumni, and how they've all done in the time since Levy had a terrible rush of blood to the head and did something stupid. After all, if Levy is so reckless in his decisions to get rid of good people, some of them would have proven him wrong...right?


Graham - Hasn't had a managerial job since

Hoddle - Took over a recently relegated side in Wolves, failed in two attempts to reach the play-offs and the fans turned against him

Pleat - Hasn't had a managerial job since

Santini - He resigned as opposed to being sacked, but he flopped at Auxerre and hasn't had another job since

Jol- Had Hamburg top of the league and in the semi-finals of the UEFA Cup and German Cup, but lost both semi-finals and finished in 5th place, which is consistent with "so near yet so far" / big game choker that Levy sacked. Same story at Ajax, where they smashed everyone in sight but still finished 2nd behind Steve McClaren's FC Twente. He did ok at the start at Fulham, but things fell apart at the end.

Ramos - Sacked by Real Madrid after losing 5-0 on aggregate to Liverpool in the Champions League and getting spanked 6-2 at home in the title decider with Barcelona. Sacked after 47 days in charge of CSKA Moscow. Is now at Dnipro, who finished 4th in the year before he took over and have finished 4th in every season he's been there, with no major impacts in the cups.

Redknapp- Finished bottom of the league with QPR last season, in fact even if the league had started from the time he took over he'd have still finished in 19th. He is top of the Championship now though.



And yet...in the time Levy has been here we have transformed from an irrelevant lower mid-table club that struggled to finish in the top half, to a top 5 regular that people take notice of, whilst carefully managing a budget and being completely outspent by our rivals. Roman Abramovic has the biggest reputation for sacking managers quickly and harshly, but nobody in English football has won as many trophies as him since he joined Chelsea. Real Madrid seem to have done quite well over the years too. In other cases (eg - Benitez at Liverpool), hanging onto them for too long actually set the club back.

I'm all for giving managers time, and I know that managers go through tough times, but they're only worth keeping on if they've proven their ability to turn things around and actually continue progressing the club. Just like giving a good manager more time will mean the club should improve, giving a bad one more time means they should get worse. As we've seen from the list above, none of those "harshly treated" managers have given any inclination that we were wrong to do what we did, with the possible exception of Redknapp who is now top of the Championship with QPR. Will AVB prove Levy wrong? Given his age, he certainly has the chance to do so. But given that he was arguably the most tactically incompetent out of a very long list of tactically incompetent managers I've seen at Spurs, I doubt it.

 

[the dza]

Good post, SUIYHA.

Levy has progressed us loads since the awful 'Sugar Years' and he keeps trying to push us along. Sure, he has made mistakes, but overall he has done brilliantly for our club.

 

[monkeybarry]

we need to remember that throughout our history we have only had THREE managers that have lasted longer than about 4 years

 

[Gutter Boy]

There's a thing called a Sigmoid Curve that explains all of this.

My issue is that AVB was still at the growth (cf decline) phase of his curve

 

[SUIYHA]

we need to remember that throughout our history we have only had THREE managers that have lasted longer than about 4 years

It's a chicken or the egg scenario. Are managers successful because they are given more time? Or are they given more time because they are successful?

I certainly think that some managers who have been sacked in recent years (not just at Spurs) should have been given more time, but if something clearly isn't going to work out then why persist with it?

 

[chancer]

I'd add something to OP...the reasonableness of the appointments Levy made in the first place. As per the names in OP:



Graham: Not appointed by Levy

Hoddle: The fan choice, a clearly gifted tactician, a former club legend. A perfectly good appointment at the time that should have worked save for Glenn's terrible problems with man-management and communication.

Pleat: Was only ever temp under Levy in crisis situations

Santini: Recommended by Anusman. A terrible recommendation, but you can hardly blame Levy for listening to the top football man at the club. And it doesn't seem fair to say "Well he shouldn't have appointed Anusman then" because most fans were excited and supportive of his arrival before he turned into such a flakey weirdo.

Jol: A good appointment given he was already at the club, was popular and went on to do very well for us.

Ramos: Another DoF appointment, and a much coveted coach at the time that many Spurs fans were happy about. Right or wrong, it was a reasonable choice. The question of Comolli's appointment is a fair point of debate I'll concede.

Redknapp: A t'riffic appointment who did really, really well for us.

AVB: Again, a fully justifiable punt on one of Europe's supposedly brightest coaching talents.


I'm not sure I can see Levy's obvious mistakes here.

 

[braineclipse]

Well summed up Chancer.

The only one of the sacked managers that I feel would have been somewhat likely to have done well enough to still be around is Redknapp. But i also understand why he was let go.

 

[Baleforce]

i don't think anyone is saying Levy always gets it wrong, it's his timing that's questionable

sacking gorgeous George needed to be done, but not 3 days before a cup semi final against the filth

Jol needed to go as well, but not during a match

Harry likewise was the right decision, just 6 months to late IMO

 

[braineclipse]

i don't think anyone is saying Levy always gets it wrong, it's his timing that's questionable

sacking gorgeous George needed to be done, but not 3 days before a cup semi final against the filth

Jol needed to go as well, but not during a match

Harry likewise was the right decision, just 6 months to late IMO

Could have been going for a "new manager effect" by getting rid of Graham. I don't think we would have been likely to beat them anyway.

The Jol situation was clearly handled unfortunately.

As for Redknapp, I argued that a decision should have been made a year before he was actually sacked. With the upcoming England job that he clearly wanted, his court case and his age he should have either been replaced or backed totally I thought.

 

[Parklaner81]

Good post, SUIYHA.

Levy has progressed us loads since the awful 'Sugar Years' and he keeps trying to push us along. Sure, he has made mistakes, but overall he has done brilliantly for our club.

Agree on all counts.

 

[Parklaner81]

My issue is that AVB was still at the growth (cf decline) phase of his curve

My issue is that AVB had us playing the most boring, insufferable football I can recall at Spurs, save perhaps a handful of games under Ramos. He had an awful lot of 'growing' to do IMO!

 

[Jordinho]

Average tenure of dismissed managers:

	2012/13	2011/12
Premier League	2.81	2.61
Championship	1.04	1.96
League One	1.37	1.39
League Two	2.57	1.46
Total	1.84	1.7

The article notes that the rise is due to Pulis ending his seven year spell at Stoke. Note that this is dismissed managers.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2341653/LMA-reveal-record-63-managers-lost-jobs-2012-13-season.html

The average duration of a Premier League manager's term of office is currently 3.88 years (figures obviously helped by the longevity of Sir Alex Ferguson and Wenger), compared to 1.29 in the Championship. For the record, League One is similarly fraught at 1.36 years to impact upon a club and League Two at 2.23.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/with-just-three-sacked-the-premier-league-is-a-managers-safe-haven-8507842.html

In another article from 2010 the average tenure in the top four divisions is 1 year and 146 days.

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/21052010/58/premier-league-managers-1-4-years-jobs.html

 

[Cochise]

I always felt sorry for Hoddle (I was too young to know about all his man management issues) because I felt with players that could've stayed fit he may have got somewhere. I think in our first game after his dismissal we beat Coventry 3-1 in a game that saw the return of Ricketts and Keane from injury.

The only other two out of all those that have been sacked who I feel sorry for are Jol and AVB. Jol was sacked horribly and I felt that he still could've dug us out of the situation we were in. AVB i felt could've had more time but his results and quality of football spoke for themselves. Even though I get that the foreign players need time to settle, he still had the option of telling Levy that we had to buy EPL experience or face this current problem.

 

[IulianSteaua]

Is it just me or the spurs fans really like to "beach" a lot. 90% said that AVB has to go, then when levy sacked him, people are saying that levy has sacked him to early, making pages after pages how managers have been sacked to early, how AVB has been harshly treated etc.

 

[Baleforce]

Is it just me or the spurs fans really like to "beach" a lot. 90% said that AVB has to go, then when levy sacked him, people are saying that levy has sacked him to early, making pages after pages how managers have been sacked to early, how AVB has been harshly treated etc.

solely going on GG I'd say it was closer to 60% who wanted him out, maybe us 40% who think he should have had more time are being more vocal now

 

[Cochise]

I think it came down to many on here wanting AVB to succeed but gradually coming round to the idea that he might not. Have to remember that most of the angriest posts came straight after poor performances. Most wanted him gone, but only if we had a good replacement lined up which we don't hence the general air fo displeasure around here.

 

[Harry_Perkins]

Yes, inclined to agree with the original post, up to a point.I think it is worth chopping and changing until you land on someone who can deliver near instant success/progress and consistent performance at a high level. Which is why it was such a poor decision to sack Redknapp. After that he absolutely had to get the next man right and he hasn't. So to an extent the critic that we're a small time Chelsea has a point. They sacked Mourinho after a relatively small setback after he'd won them their first two championships back to back and they then went through a string of managers before landing back where they started with little progress and considerable setbacks in between. As we aren't going back to Redknapp anytime soon then Levy has to repeat the feat and get as lucky as he did first time around with Redknapp. As I've said from the off, I thought this was unlikely in the short term and so it has proved.

 

[Jurgen the German]

I'd add something to OP...the reasonableness of the appointments Levy made in the first place. As per the names in OP:



Graham: Not appointed by Levy

Hoddle: The fan choice, a clearly gifted tactician, a former club legend. A perfectly good appointment at the time that should have worked save for Glenn's terrible problems with man-management and communication.

Pleat: Was only ever temp under Levy in crisis situations

Santini: Recommended by Anusman. A terrible recommendation, but you can hardly blame Levy for listening to the top football man at the club. And it doesn't seem fair to say "Well he shouldn't have appointed Anusman then" because most fans were excited and supportive of his arrival before he turned into such a flakey weirdo.

Jol: A good appointment given he was already at the club, was popular and went on to do very well for us.

Ramos: Another DoF appointment, and a much coveted coach at the time that many Spurs fans were happy about. Right or wrong, it was a reasonable choice. The question of Comolli's appointment is a fair point of debate I'll concede.

Redknapp: A t'riffic appointment who did really, really well for us.

AVB: Again, a fully justifiable punt on one of Europe's supposedly brightest coaching talents.


I'm not sure I can see Levy's obvious mistakes here.

Because if the manager is unsuccessful long term or he fires managers to early then surely the person who hires these managers has to be culpable at some point? I fully accept he can be a brilliant chairman at times who pulls off some fantastic deals for the club, but the man has also made some monumental **** ups down the years and whenever he is questioned you get pro Levy posters responding with pathetic throwaway one liners like 'bring back Sugar". Such a straw man arguement. Find me one Spurs fan who would want Sugar back at the club.

All this talk of him being the best chairman in the country, shouldn't someone like Bill Kenwright be mentioned more frequently considering Everton have finished in the top 4 only once less than we have, on a fraction of the budget we have, has to sell the best player nearly every season, doesn't make kneejerk decisions and has made 2 extremely shrewd choices as managers in the last 15 years, SO FAR.

 

[Mumorn]

How many clubs keep managers for a lengthy period? Would be interesting to see the top clubs and their lengthiest manager reigns over the past 20 years or so.

 

[onlyme]

Seeing as there's been a big fuss made recently about how trigger happy Levy is, how he doesn't give talented and well deserving managers time, I thought it might be worth looking at our managerial alumni, and how they've all done in the time since Levy had a terrible rush of blood to the head and did something stupid. After all, if Levy is so reckless in his decisions to get rid of good people, some of them would have proven him wrong...right?


Graham - Hasn't had a managerial job since

Hoddle - Took over a recently relegated side in Wolves, failed in two attempts to reach the play-offs and the fans turned against him

Pleat - Hasn't had a managerial job since

Santini - He resigned as opposed to being sacked, but he flopped at Auxerre and hasn't had another job since

Jol- Had Hamburg top of the league and in the semi-finals of the UEFA Cup and German Cup, but lost both semi-finals and finished in 5th place, which is consistent with "so near yet so far" / big game choker that Levy sacked. Same story at Ajax, where they smashed everyone in sight but still finished 2nd behind Steve McClaren's FC Twente. He did ok at the start at Fulham, but things fell apart at the end.

Ramos - Sacked by Real Madrid after losing 5-0 on aggregate to Liverpool in the Champions League and getting spanked 6-2 at home in the title decider with Barcelona. Sacked after 47 days in charge of CSKA Moscow. Is now at Dnipro, who finished 4th in the year before he took over and have finished 4th in every season he's been there, with no major impacts in the cups.

Redknapp- Finished bottom of the league with QPR last season, in fact even if the league had started from the time he took over he'd have still finished in 19th. He is top of the Championship now though.



And yet...in the time Levy has been here we have transformed from an irrelevant lower mid-table club that struggled to finish in the top half, to a top 5 regular that people take notice of, whilst carefully managing a budget and being completely outspent by our rivals. Roman Abramovic has the biggest reputation for sacking managers quickly and harshly, but nobody in English football has won as many trophies as him since he joined Chelsea. Real Madrid seem to have done quite well over the years too. In other cases (eg - Benitez at Liverpool), hanging onto them for too long actually set the club back.

I'm all for giving managers time, and I know that managers go through tough times, but they're only worth keeping on if they've proven their ability to turn things around and actually continue progressing the club. Just like giving a good manager more time will mean the club should improve, giving a bad one more time means they should get worse. As we've seen from the list above, none of those "harshly treated" managers have given any inclination that we were wrong to do what we did, with the possible exception of Redknapp who is now top of the Championship with QPR. Will AVB prove Levy wrong? Given his age, he certainly has the chance to do so. But given that he was arguably the most tactically incompetent out of a very long list of tactically incompetent managers I've seen at Spurs, I doubt it.

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