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Club values and team identity

D

DaveT316

Naybet
Over the past 10 years (or more), it feels like we’ve been on a hell of a journey both on and off the pitch, growing financially, in status and on the pitch in terms of results. This has been into particularly sharp focus with dramatic changes in the team and management over the past 18 months and what has felt like the club’s progress has stalled.

Now there are many wider macro factors for that - *coughs* Covid *coughs, but in a non-Covid, infectious way* but it’s got me thinking about the subject of the club’s values and the team’s identity where I’m really interested in others’ views.

Prior to Poch’s demise, it felt like what both the club and the team stood for were in syncopation, a perfect harmony that stood for modernity and dynamism, bravery and community spirit. While the club’s values seem to have remained constant - and it seems very keen to garner our views here in the number of questionnaires we’ve been asked to contribute to on such matters when assessing potential brand partnerships! - it feels to me that the team’s identity has been eroded or is at least dissonant from the club’s.

I’d be really interested to hear people’s views on the following:

1) What do you feel are the club’s values and how important are they to you? Are they a key reason for why you support the club? If not, what are the other reasons you keep coming back?

2) How important is it that the team has a clear identity - i.e. front foot vs reactive, promotes youth vs buys from outside club etc - and should it reflect the wider club’s values? Do we even have one at the moment? Does it matter?

I promise I don’t work for the club (!), I’m just genuinely interested in the reasons why people continue to follow the club / team and whether they have to stand for something more than being 11 players winning a football match.

I find it a really interesting topic of conversation, but would welcome others’ views here.
 
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Inherently something triggers the tribal response in us (the classic I didn't pick Spurs, Spurs picked me response when asked why follow a club)

Spurs has identity, an identity that overlays with a history (style of play, minority and foreign players early, the yiddo support of jewish fan base) and the fact that we are an extremely well run business under the stewardship of Levy/ENIC. Sometimes those things conflict, being a well run business on/off field doesn't always align with fan ideals of football (lots of fans think how Leeds plays is admirable)

So understanding we are all hypocrites and never apply equal levels of judgement to other as to ourselves, I will try to answer

1. I feel the club has values, we have traditionally been involved heavily in local community, charity, the work we did supporting NHS, the work we have done for years taking care of ex-players. Tottenham also has the "tottenham way" an aspiration to a way we want to play. Do we always succeed in both goals or always make the right decision? = no, but there is a real desire in the club to get there

It is important for me, I never got the support Barca, or people supporting Chelsea/City, bought success with a parade of mercenary players and managers just to support a club that will win? I started supporting Spurs in the early 80's, probably the classic Spurs, great players, some success, probably in the scheme of what was possible = underachieved, and poor circumstance that would have long term consequences on the club.

I come back because the club got under my skin, and football/sport is really the one place where we can (mostly) be as tribal as we want to be, without being asshat/piece of brick humans (what we tend to be when we apply that tribal nature to other labels), and it's great when your tribe wins .. even for a moment, it's our escape


2. Identity is hard, I think the academy says we want to have "our own", I think we want to play good football, but how does that stand up to scrutiny? will you play Winks over PEH or Ndombele because he's home grown? (really only Atletic Bilbao has that stance), if you want the final step of success there will be some compromises.

What I don't want to see is the culture of cheating (constant dives, trying to hurt opposition players, odd relationships with FA like Wenger/Dein had, flagrant fudging with Financial Fair Play, bogus sponsorship deals with family/states, supporting owners that literally are involved in the deaths of significant numbers of people). Again is there things Spurs does I don't like? = sure, but there is enough of a difference between us and those I referenced for my hypocrite self to justify.
 
We built organically, self financing, whilst:

We were kicked in the nuts by clubs that couldn't sustain their overspending (Leeds, Cheatski, Newcash, Blackburn etc) that kept us out of European places and stunted our growth massively.

We were poisoned by Lasagna when we threatened the elite.
We were kept out of CL when we finished fourth due to a rule.

We were kicked in the nuts by clubs that "borrowed" billions of pounds from not murderers (Cheatski, Emirates Marketing Project, Leicester etc) that kept us out of European places and stunted our growth massively.

Yet still we kept going, we keep doing things the right way, we have sustainably built the best stadium in Europe and are going the right way.
 
Raziel said:
Inherently something triggers the tribal response in us (the classic I didn't pick Spurs, Spurs picked me response when asked why follow a club)

Spurs has identity, an identity that overlays with a history (style of play, minority and foreign players early, the yiddo support of jewish fan base) and the fact that we are an extremely well run business under the stewardship of Levy/ENIC. Sometimes those things conflict, being a well run business on/off field doesn't always align with fan ideals of football (lots of fans think how Leeds plays is admirable)

So understanding we are all hypocrites and never apply equal levels of judgement to other as to ourselves, I will try to answer

1. I feel the club has values, we have traditionally been involved heavily in local community, charity, the work we did supporting NHS, the work we have done for years taking care of ex-players. Tottenham also has the "tottenham way" an aspiration to a way we want to play. Do we always succeed in both goals or always make the right decision? = no, but there is a real desire in the club to get there

It is important for me, I never got the support Barca, or people supporting Chelsea/City, bought success with a parade of mercenary players and managers just to support a club that will win? I started supporting Spurs in the early 80's, probably the classic Spurs, great players, some success, probably in the scheme of what was possible = underachieved, and poor circumstance that would have long term consequences on the club.

I come back because the club got under my skin, and football/sport is really the one place where we can (mostly) be as tribal as we want to be, without being asshat/piece of brick humans (what we tend to be when we apply that tribal nature to other labels), and it's great when your tribe wins .. even for a moment, it's our escape


2. Identity is hard, I think the academy says we want to have "our own", I think we want to play good football, but how does that stand up to scrutiny? will you play Winks over PEH or Ndombele because he's home grown? (really only Atletic Bilbao has that stance), if you want the final step of success there will be some compromises.

What I don't want to see is the culture of cheating (constant dives, trying to hurt opposition players, odd relationships with FA like Wenger/Dein had, flagrant fudging with Financial Fair Play, bogus sponsorship deals with family/states, supporting owners that non-figuratively are involved in the deaths of significant numbers of people). Again is there things Spurs does I don't like? = sure, but there is enough of a difference between us and those I referenced for my hypocrite self to justify.
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Very elegantly put. Far better expressed than I could’ve done. Bravo.
 
1) Since ENIC took over, professionalism, and pragmatism. There was one way we could compete, it wasn't easy, and it took decades, but it worked. I of course had chosen Spurs long beforehand though. I'm on board with the ENIC way, I'm proud that the financial doping stick can't be waved at us but I'd be lying if I said I became a Spurs fan because of values, I chose Spurs because my two best friends already had.

2) The only identity I care about is one of being successful, I'm not from the area, I'm not Jewish, I was the first Spurs fan in my family (that I'm aware of), again, I'm proud that our climb over the last two decades has been organic (I'm big into not only arriving at the correct answer, but also being able to show the working out). I can put up with a lot of considered negatives, I don't mind if we get away with diving, or sneaky stamps on hands, I'll take the benefit of actions by those whose political and religious beliefs are the opposite of mine (I'm looking at you Lucas Moura).

Overall, I'm still here because the club is still trying to win, that changing is the only thing that would send me elsewhere.
 
Bullet said:
We built organically, self financing, whilst:

We were kicked in the nuts by clubs that couldn't sustain their overspending (Leeds, Cheatski, Newcash, Blackburn etc) that kept us out of European places and stunted our growth massively.

We were poisoned by Lasagna when we threatened the elite.
We were kept out of CL when we finished fourth due to a rule.

We were kicked in the nuts by clubs that "borrowed" billions of pounds from not murderers (Cheatski, Emirates Marketing Project, Leicester etc) that kept us out of European places and stunted our growth massively.

Yet still we kept going, we keep doing things the right way, we have sustainably built the best stadium in Europe and are going the right way.
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My GHod, I have felt this too for too long!!!
 
This is a very emotional subject, we as fans have feelings and aspirations for the club which bare no relation to what football has become.

Clubs and media love to talk about tradition, style, history and place in the community but it's all waffle, it's just about money and winning if you aren't getting enough of either you're irrelevant.

The game has change completly since I started going, teams such as Bolton, Blackpool, Blackburn, Birmingham, Burnley, Preston, Portsmouth, Sheffield Wed and Wolves were established top league sides, it now seems to me that with the exception of Burnley and Wolves those teams have little chance of ever reaching that status on a regular basis. Their fans would have the same dreams as us and tick all the boxes about tradition, history and being part of the community, but who gives a fudge about apart from when they're beating us or being trashed by the usual suspects.

I support Spurs there is no rational explanation other than my dad took me and I passed that burden on to my kids, I want us to win every game playing with style and the club to behave in a moral manner, I have no expectation that either will happen all of the time but live in hope. It's probably why I dont buy into the blame culture whenever we fail. We are all human (with some exception) and as such will fail despite our best efforts.

Pay your money and shut up or go somewhere else, that where we live.
 
I support Spurs because my Dad does and if he supported a club with different ideals and morals then I'd be sat here rationalising them too no doubt.

I want to see the club trying to be the best it can and i want to see entertaining winning football. If that's the state of play, I'm happy - if it's not, I'm not

But ultimately I'll be here regardless
 
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I support the team. They are the ones who entertain* me. I don't support the club. Actually, I mistrust it: the club is a commercial enterprise which seeks to earn as much money as it can from my desire for entertainment. That's directly opposed to my interests, so I watch streams rather than subscribing to Sky, and have something to eat before going to the ground.

That said, my pleasure in the team would be diminished if the club seemed to act badly. The current level of community engagement, of public opposition to racism and homophobia, all the stuff you'd expect of an enterprise with a large public profile - all that seems more than satisfactory at the moment, unlikely ever to become an issue. I'd be okay with sugar-daddy success as long as the money was clean. The proceeds of looting from kleptocracies certainly aren't, anyone who invests in clubs to launder their reputation or buy a bolt-hole is intrinsically suspect. ENIC doesn't trigger any such concerns.

So basically, my atitude to the club's values relates to negatives, rather than positives, and is unrelated to my feelings about the team.

* The question about what exactly is entertaining about long-term football supporterhood is complex. It clearly goes much further than simply appreciating skill, and there's even a certain amount of masochism involved.
 
Since Mourinho's arrival we have compromised our high principles somewhat. The Game Is About Glory has come to mean The Game is About Winning Trophies First and Foremost. The desperation for a trophy has become an albatross on our backs.

Of course we all want to win trophies, always have done, always will. But now it's less about doing in style and more about just doing it. If at times we have to bore the pants off the opposition, so be it. The end justifies the means.

Fortunately we do also have some outstanding footballers to provide a face-saving figleaf: Kane, Son, Tanguy and Lo Celso - which means even when we park the bus there may still also be an element of glory in our play.
 
Spur of the moment said:
Since Mourinho's arrival we have compromised our high principles somewhat. The Game Is About Glory has come to mean The Game is About Winning Trophies First and Foremost. The desperation for a trophy has become an albatross on our backs.

Of course we all want to win trophies, always have done, always will. But now it's less about doing in style and more about just doing it. If at times we have to bore the pants off the opposition, so be it. The end justifies the means.

Fortunately we do also have some outstanding footballers to provide a face-saving figleaf: Kane, Son, Tanguy and Lo Celso - which means even when we park the bus there may still also be an element of glory in our play.
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I don't want to hijack the thread, but here's my opinion

- The long term success of the club (something we have been working on for pretty much the tenure of Levy) is in part dependant on short term results. I think it will be a major setback to have another generation of quality players (Kane, Son, etc.) fail to bring home a trophy.
- We tried the project and it fell short .. just, but it did.
- The level of noise re the 12 years since last trophy is a distraction and an unwanted pressure.

The club has made a short term decision with Jose, if he can delivery 1-2 (or more) trophies in his tenure (which traditionally isn't long), it validates the approach/investments of the club, kills the noise and gives the base to step up on to, perhaps with a slightly less pragmatic on field approach
 
The team identify is IMO flashy pretty boys who don’t have a strong winning ethos. It’s something that Poch was trying to change and Jose is too bit it takes a looooong time
The identity is IMO show others see us, not how we see ourselves
Club values are IMO very much focused now on being organic but historically on being the innovator and the first clubs to do things
We have a lot of firsts in our trophy record
We have a lot of firsts in our stadium history
We have a lot in our signings (foreign players are key to that)
The style of football has always been an area of of focus for our fans... but so has that desire for trophies and they don’t always go hand in hand (George Graham’s side was quite an in-house one football wise)
 
Spurs were my grandfather's club. A proud man who fought with the Royal Marines in WWII, built ships at the Harland-Wolff shipyard in Belfast and lived and died with Danny Blanchflower, Jimmy Greaves and Dave MacKay. I remember visiting his home in the mid-'60s in Belfast's Ardoyne district and he brought me into the sitting room one day and had me watch a Spurs game with him - in black and white - and rhapsodized about the players mentioned plus others. I was instantly hooked.

The bottom line was that he loved the culture of the club. He passed that on to me and it became indelible when I paid my one and only visit to WHL in '79. Two years later - "...and STILL Ricky Veel-yah!..." - I'm standing on a chair in a university pub twirling a Spurs scarf bought on my visit as Spurs win the '81 FA Cup.

And I remember the fun we had packed into a mid-town Toronto bar roaring Spurs on to the League Cup win over Chelsea and to those memorable Champions League games in 2010 against the Milan clubs.

The core values, to me, have always been about striving against big clubs like ManU and Liverpool while coping with the ardent adversity of multiple derbies against moneyed, more successful London clubs. And West Ham. Never losing a sense of ambition while maintaining a role as great entertainers.

And playing with a sense of style. Yes, there will be days when the players have to buckle down and close out a tight game. I get that and never bellyache about it. But there have to be days in every season where we do ridiculously wonderful things. Even in the current season where Mourinho is getting hammered for being too conservative, we still have wonderful games and moments to reflect on - the wins over ManU and Southampton, Ndombele's filthy goal in Sheffield. Winks from the halfway line. Even looking further back to Son's ridiculous Puskas Award winning goal in 2020 vs. Burnley.

The flair is there. But we need results right now more than we need flair.
 
Raziel said:
2. Identity is hard, I think the academy says we want to have "our own", I think we want to play good football, but how does that stand up to scrutiny? will you play Winks over PEH or Ndombele because he's home grown? (really only Atletic Bilbao has that stance), if you want the final step of success there will be some compromises.

What I don't want to see is the culture of cheating (constant dives, trying to hurt opposition players, odd relationships with FA like Wenger/Dein had, flagrant fudging with Financial Fair Play, bogus sponsorship deals with family/states, supporting owners that non-figuratively are involved in the deaths of significant numbers of people). Again is there things Spurs does I don't like? = sure, but there is enough of a difference between us and those I referenced for my hypocrite self to justify.
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This strikes a chord with me too... I have always loved Spurs as a club that has a certain corinthian spirit... we play by the rules both on the pitch, and have good ethics and follow the rules off the pitch. I am proud to follow a club that did not cheat and bribe to gain 'promotion' (Looking at that mob Woolwich) nor is one of our most celebrated players known as Chopper! To paraphrase 'rugby being a game for thugs played by gentlemen and football being a game for gentlemen played by thugs' - it didn't apply to Tottenham... we played the gentleman's game with a gentlemen's values. I loved the way we try and beat the opposition by playing the game, and not playing the rules. Lineker was the epitome of a Spurs player ... the lad was never booked in his career... and that was the sort of player we have been able to attract. It may have seen us branded as southern softies but occasionally our football has absolutely purred!
 
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