Bale + Lennon + attacking full-backs

[elltrev]

After being shocked and dismayed to see Lennon start on the bench yesterday, and then more shocked and dismayed to see him and Bale playing anywhere but their natural flanks in the second half, it got me thinking.

When teams park the bus, you need to get men forward. Everyone agrees that Bale and Lennon should largely stick to their respective flanks, and do what they do best - try and beat the full-back and get crosses into the box. Where does this leave our full-backs? Attacking full-backs generally excel when their respective wide men cut inside, so they can overlap. But given that our wide men (should) prefer to stay outisde, maybe our full-backs should make attacking runs inside them instead? Like when Ekotto almost scored against Norwich? And when Walker scored against Bolton in that cup game? Walker is pretty useless at beating his man and crossing, so maybe he'd be of more benefit in and around the area, as an aerial threat and with a decent shot on him. And with Benoit's skill, I think he could actually do a decent job coming inside into attacking positions (he already does it sometimes).

I dunno, maybe this is a pretty pointless thread given the current situation. I think this would be interesting to see though, and would allow our players to play to their strengths.

 

[milo]

Some of our best play this season has come from VdV, Bale and Lennon switching positions.

 

[P.D.]

I dont think attacking full backs and chalk on boots wingers works so well. Charlie and Lennon was perfect, there would always be one staying and one going on the overlap.

What is actually very important for a good attacking full back is a magentic first touch, space is always so tight and Walkers first tough is truly shocking.

 

[elltrev]

Some of our best play this season has come from VdV, Bale and Lennon switching positions.

Do you think? What games in particular? Personally I love fluid systems in which attacking players have the freedom to roam and interchange; I just think those three are too (relatively-speaking) one-dimensional to excel at it.

 

[elltrev]

I dont think attacking full backs and chalk on boots wingers works so well. Charlie and Lennon was perfect, there would always be one staying and one going on the overlap.

What is actually very important for a good attacking full back is a magentic first touch, space is always so tight and Walkers first tough is truly shocking.

But that's kind of my point; it doesn't work well because they both want to occupy the same space. Having BAE and Walker attack the space inside opposing wingers and full-backs might work. Everyone wants Bale and Lennon to play as out-and-out wingers, but that doesn't leave us with many attacking options or attacking movement more centrally.

I agree regarding Walker's touch.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

This is why Lennon was ineffectual in South Africa in the World Cup and given how much Erikkson saw us play, just as unfathonable as Harry's tactical incompetence. In the World Cup, Lennon's forward space was being taken by Glenn Johnson, this season it is Walker. Why doesnt Redknapp instruct him to do what he is meant to do-DEFEND!!!!!!!!!!!! Leave the forward space to Lennon, a player who can dribble and cross. He also scores the odd goal too.

 

[Roy1983]

Bale.left.lennon.right.do.not.switch.flanks.ever.thank.you.please.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Do you think? What games in particular? Personally I love fluid systems in which attacking players have the freedom to roam and interchange; I just think those three are too (relatively-speaking) one-dimensional to excel at it.

When we had our best spell of the season - when we turned over Blackburn, QPR, Fulham and Villa etc. in consecutive weeks in October/November. That fluid trio behind Ade was breathtaking at times. Probably the best attacking play we've had since at least '87.

 

[Modric THFC]

When we had our best spell of the season - when we turned over Blackburn, QPR, Fulham and Villa etc. in consecutive weeks in October/November. That fluid trio behind Ade was breathtaking at times. Probably the best attacking play we've had since at least '87.

Indeed but the same tactic isn't gonna work against a team with 10 men behind the ball playing narrow.
There's an awful lot of talk on here about our formation and our tactics. Most of the time it completely ignores the opposition.

Yesterday we had no chance of breaking down QPR after they set up like that. It was like Barcelona against Chelsea.
Our only chance was stretching the play and sending in crosses to a player who could head the ball. We didn't stretch them and we didn't have anyone in the middle who could have got on the end of any of our crosses.

 

[braineclipse]

When we had our best spell of the season - when we turned over Blackburn, QPR, Fulham and Villa etc. in consecutive weeks in October/November. That fluid trio behind Ade was breathtaking at times. Probably the best attacking play we've had since at least '87.

Interesting choice of games. Highest placed of those teams are Fulham in 9th, 2 teams who have been in the relegation scrap all season and one team who should be in it. In the games against Blackburn and Fulham we were hanging on, could easily have gone away with less than 3 points and even against QPR we were put under quite a bit of pressure until we got the 3-1 goal despite being two goals up at half time.

 

[elltrev]

Interesting choice of games. Highest placed of those teams are Fulham in 9th, 2 teams who have been in the relegation scrap all season and one team who should be in it. In the games against Blackburn and Fulham we were hanging on, could easily have gone away with less than 3 points and even against QPR we were put under quite a bit of pressure until we got the 3-1 goal despite being two goals up at half time.

What he said! I remember the second half against Fulham as being the most painful half of football I'd watched as a Spurs fan in years!

 

[milo]

Bale.left.lennon.right.do.not.switch.flanks.ever.thank.you.please.

and I thought that it was Harry who was meant to be bad at tactics

 

[africanspurs]

nothing wrong with coming narrow , ...now and again. its when you just slowly casually walk infield thats easy to track that its a near colossal waste of time.

another thing is VDV...if he plays and the wingers stay wide he needs to stay forward. the man doesnt......likes to drift where he wont threaten. who knows why

if our players tuck infield VDV IMO still needs to hang on the edge of the final third at the very least to ut bale and lennon and the striker through...or feed the ful backs if he can.

nothing wrong with wide players tucking infield....the three top teams do that all the time.......the two top teams in la liga do it quite often when i've seen them

it just needs to be done right IMO

 

[ringo]

Even if you want the LM and RM to play like wingers, you still need a RB and LB capable of attacking down the flank on the overlap . Otherwise the team is too predictable. When we are attacking, the full backs should be: a) offering support to the wide player in case they need to come back up the line; b) taking the opposing team's midfield player away from the line, so that it is harder for them to double up when they defend; c) offering up on the edge of the box for the cutback.

When we do play wide midfielders as wingers we need to improve our ability to switch play. I've seen quite a few games where Lennon is on the line, in space, hand up, looking for the ball over the top. The ball, meanwhile is in or around our LB/LM/left CB position, and instead of playing the early crossfield ball they play a short pass inside or just up the line, and the opportunity is gone (and Lennon looks tinkled off as a result). You don't see it on television so much, but is very obvious live.

 

[DanishWhite]

nothing wrong with coming narrow , ...now and again. its when you just slowly casually walk infield thats easy to track that its a near colossal waste of time.

another thing is VDV...if he plays and the wingers stay wide he needs to stay forward. the man doesnt......likes to drift where he wont threaten. who knows why

if our players tuck infield VDV IMO still needs to hang on the edge of the final third at the very least to ut bale and lennon and the striker through...or feed the ful backs if he can.

nothing wrong with wide players tucking infield....the three top teams do that all the time.......the two top teams in la liga do it quite often when i've seen them

it just needs to be done right IMO

No. If VdV goes deep then the wingers needs to push UP.

Problem is that Bale and Lennon are another couple of instinct players. They have little if any tactical ability.

And it's not OK for them to tuck inside. It's ok to swap flanks and it's ok to start diagonal runs from outside to inside. Staying inside, standing around to wait for the ball when we need to break down 10 man teams are pretty f*cking far from OK, pardon the language. And it's not just a tactical thing. It's personal. Both Bale and Lennon are very poor at finding space in crowded areas. They are on the other hand very quick. Therefore they need to either stay or at least start their movement in less crowded spaces (read: wide) to achieve pace when on the ball when they break into tight areas.

This isn't even complicated tactical chit-chat.

This is bread and butter for schoolboy teams.

 

[DanishWhite]

Even if you want the LM and RM to play like wingers, you still need a RB and LB capable of attacking down the flank on the overlap . Otherwise the team is too predictable. When we are attacking, the full backs should be: a) offering support to the wide player in case they need to come back up the line; b) taking the opposing team's midfield player away from the line, so that it is harder for them to double up when they defend; c) offering up on the edge of the box for the cutback.

When we do play wide midfielders as wingers we need to improve our ability to switch play. I've seen quite a few games where Lennon is on the line, in space, hand up, looking for the ball over the top. The ball, meanwhile is in or around our LB/LM/left CB position, and instead of playing the early crossfield ball they play a short pass inside or just up the line, and the opportunity is gone (and Lennon looks tinkled off as a result). You don't see it on television so much, but is very obvious live.

Yes.

And in particular when we play 10 man teams looking for a goal.

We don't NEED 8 players thinking they need to play in attacking CENTRAL midfield. What we NEED is width to open up spaces. For that wide players is needed, at most 2 man staying in central to control play swithching sides (and 1 could be a defender), at top one defender marking Zamora and everyone else either being wide or looking for space anywhere along their backline.

What we don't need is QPR second half, where everyone are standing around on eachothers toes around between their box and the half way circle wanting to be Xavi or ?ûzil.

I saw Derry (the c*nt) and Barton (ditto) having a mighty laugh with Hughes post game on the TV stream, I bet they couldn't believe their luck.

 

[Rorschach]

No. If VdV goes deep then the wingers needs to push UP.

Problem is that Bale and Lennon are another couple of instinct players. They have little if any tactical ability.

And it's not OK for them to tuck inside. It's ok to swap flanks and it's ok to start diagonal runs from outside to inside. Staying inside, standing around to wait for the ball when we need to break down 10 man teams are pretty f*cking far from OK, pardon the language. And it's not just a tactical thing. It's personal. Both Bale and Lennon are very poor at finding space in crowded areas. They are on the other hand very quick. Therefore they need to either stay or at least start their movement in less crowded spaces (read: wide) to achieve pace when on the ball when they break into tight areas.

This isn't even complicated tactical chit-chat.

This is bread and butter for schoolboy teams.

Totally agree with this (again!!)

 

[Dicko]

I posted this in the Premier Legue Stats thread but thought I should move it here..

I think where sides like Man Utd have proved more successful than us against teams that sit back and let them have possession is that they tend to get the ball out wide and consistently drill in cross after cross.

You can see Nani has 10 assists, Valencia 14, Young 9, Giggs 8. (41 Total)

Thats an awesome amount of assists and puts our 8 from Bale and N/A from Lennon (hasn't made the list!) to shame!!

I think when you can break through stubborn defences it goes to show if you're getting balls in the box then anything can happen, deflections, corners, mis-hits, defender/keeper mix-ups etc

Although I would add, when I watched United doing this against someone the other week it was terrible to watch..

Carrick, Scholes, Carrick, out to Valencia... cross cleared
Carrick, Scholes, Carrick, out to Valencia... cross deflected for a corner
Carrick, Scholes, Carrick, out to Valencia... cross cleared
Carrick, Scholes, Carrick, out to Valencia... cross deflected for a corner
Carrick, Scholes, Carrick, out to Valencia... Goal

Not great to watch but if you don't have a Messi, Xavi to waltz through a packed box then it has proved to work for them!

 

[DanishWhite]

Off course crossing, let alone good crossing, leads to dangerous situations.

That said, it would help, if the entire Spurs Squad was given a lecture in the concept "ATTACKING THE BALL". As opposed to wait for Walker and Ekotto to hit you square in the forehead from 30 yards out while you stand around shrugging your shoulders.

What the fudge do we pay Les Ferdinand for anyway ? Surely he of all people can see it's off.

 

[africanspurs]

No. If VdV goes deep then the wingers needs to push UP.

Problem is that Bale and Lennon are another couple of instinct players. They have little if any tactical ability.

And it's not OK for them to tuck inside. It's ok to swap flanks and it's ok to start diagonal runs from outside to inside. Staying inside, standing around to wait for the ball when we need to break down 10 man teams are pretty f*cking far from OK, pardon the language. And it's not just a tactical thing. It's personal. Both Bale and Lennon are very poor at finding space in crowded areas. They are on the other hand very quick. Therefore they need to either stay or at least start their movement in less crowded spaces (read: wide) to achieve pace when on the ball when they break into tight areas.

This isn't even complicated tactical chit-chat.

This is bread and butter for schoolboy teams.

i'm not really sure where the 'no' comes into it if i'm honest........ you seem to have echoed what i said? or at least was trying to say.

if VDV comes deep then you say the wingers needs to push up? if you dont mean that they need to angle their runs more infield / narrow beyond the back line then yes you and i would be in disagreement.

if the two wide men stay wide , then VDV needs to get his ass forward to make up the numbers and support the striker. if you dont agree with that then there is another thing we have in disagreement

the players can come infield..they just can slowly walk there and stay there...as its easier to track and makes that whole area congested. i wasnt meaning that these players should move infield and jus stay there. their movement needs to be able to come at times that puts the defensive shape of the opposition in trouble ...i.e just ghosting into pockets of space, not them casually walking in there. And their runs need to be constantly theatening to go beyond the back line so that VDV playing on the edge can have something to aim at

and you claim that bale and lennon are mostly instinctive players and not tactical ones? the game against QPR at home showed a different side to them.......and i am pretty sure that if bale and lennon were under wenger or ferguson, this idea that they arent tactical would be put to bed.

IMP there is nothing wrong with wide players tcuking infield...if they do it right, and if their prescense there threatens the opposition back line. not asking them to be nasri or silva or a wide iniesta etc