Ange in or out?

[harr1984]

Yeah and people know more about tactics than Mourinho and Conte. Even that clown at Southampton knows more about football than all of us put together but if I were a Saints fan, I'd still want him out.

Same goes for Postecoglou: he's got a long career in football. So what? With that line of thinking, you can't comment on anything except maybe your job (assuming you're good at it) and a couple of topics you know a few things about.

It would be more convincing to argue that he was right to keep him out of the team (after all, he was injured) rather than question people's right to criticise the manager.

No one is saying you can't criticise the manager as far as I can see? The comment was Ange can't spot talent because Spence had a good game and has been used sparingly by Ange. Now it's obvious Spence has talent, and I'm sure Ange would say the same. But you need more than talent at this level, and it comes down to things that we don't see - application, hard work etc things there has been talk he has not scored well with in the past.

Then as you mention he has been injured - Now guess who has the best insights into all this info? Yes, Ange and it's not like the previous manager was playing him either . So I guess us armchair fan know it alls should really be swotting up on our coaching badges or offering ourselves as player scout gurus because it's all so easy for us, or maybe just maybe there is more to Spences lack of game time than meets the eye.....

 

[SkipRat]

We have loaned out young players to get more consistent game time than they would have gotten here to help with their development. That's a good thing.

I think it's partly about protection, I don't think it's as much about protection from fans reaction as Steff does. But more than being about protection I think it's about giving them what Ange thinks they'll need for their development.

I think he's done well with both Gray and Bergvall. Both are very talented players, but both are new to the club and league and 18 years old. Already now, half way into their first season here getting PL starts and doing well.

We can't know how they would have done if used earlier, in tougher games, in different positions. But they're seemingly developing well and that's a good thing.

These youngsters developing well is more important to us as a club than short term results imo.

If you don't think a young player being thrown in at the deep end can be worse than underperforming experienced very good players that's on you.

As I have said before.

It's amazing how the like of Brighton et al, play their youngsters and we all start wishing we have players like that... Well we do and we are scared to play them.

But they are not ready, we hear people say... Well, neither are the so called starting 11, who have been absolutely brick most of the time.

All I ever hear are excuses why we shouldn't play them.

Yeah, Gray has been played... In every position but the one he actually plays in... As I said, we are playing Gray as a CB... Why loan out Philips? Surely Philips would get loads of play time in Europe and the Cups, alongside Drag's, rotating with Romero and VDV.... Would be better for us as our 4th choice CB will actually be getting game time with the actually team he was supposed to be playing with.

Sorry, it's appauling how we under use players.

 

[Mr Gogolak]

No one is saying you can't criticise the manager as far as I can see? The comment was Ange can't spot talent because Spence had a good game and has been used sparingly by Ange. Now it's obvious Spence has talent, and I'm sure Ange would say the same. But you need more than talent at this level, and it comes down to things that we don't see - application, hard work etc things there has been talk he has not scored well with in the past.

Then as you mention he has been injured - Now guess who has the best insights into all this info? Yes, Ange and it's not like the previous manager was playing him either . So I guess us armchair fan know it alls should really be swotting up on our coaching badges or offering ourselves as player scout gurus because it's all so easy for us, or maybe just maybe there is more to Spences lack of game time than meets the eye.....

In my book, belittling football fans and denying them the right to critise the manager is roughly the same thing. Again, there are some perfectly valid arguments for not playing Spence but a) Mourinho, Espirito Santo and Conte (or anybody else for that matter, bar Pochettino) weren't unquestionable on this message board and b) let's not pretend that football managers only take rational decisions. There are also personal feelings in football and just like there could be valid reasons for not playing Spence, there could be less noble ones.

But that's not my point. My point is that if you really think that the manager is the only person who really knows what he's doing, then there's no point in having a fans message board in the first place. We're all doing guesswork and sometimes sharing feelings and impulses here and just because you side with the manager doesn't make your opinions any better (at least, that's my take on it).

 

[harr1984]

In my book, belittling football fans and denying them the right to critise the manager is roughly the same thing. Again, there are some perfectly valid arguments for not playing Spence but a) Mourinho, Espirito Santo and Conte (or anybody else for that matter, bar Pochettino) weren't unquestionable on this message board and b) let's not pretend that football managers only take rational decisions. There are also personal feelings in football and just like there could be valid reasons for not playing Spence, there could be less noble ones.

But that's not my point. My point is that if you really think that the manager is the only person who really knows what he's doing, then there's no point in having a fans message board in the first place. We're all doing guesswork and sometimes sharing feelings and impulses here and just because you side with the manager doesn't make your opinions any better (at least, that's my take on it).

Again, no one has said the manager is always right or the only person who can know what he's doing you keep making a broader point than what was being picked up on.

But a poster announcing that Ange doesn't recognise talent because Spence has put in a good performance against a poor PL team is quite frankly a ridiculous suggestion and one I wouldn't have even bothered replying to. But another poster did fairly pointing Ange is probably better placed to know which isn't belitting, the odds are he is best placed to know considering he has all the facts and data and has worked closely with him and then adding that Conte plus Mason didn't want to play him either - well it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure maybe there's more going on than it being as simple as the guy has talent.

Can speculate why he's not playing for sure, but to announce that Ange doesn't understand or recognise talent because Spence hasn't really featured under him is, well to be polite OTT.....

 

[harr1984]

Surely as the manager who gave him his first start out of the three (maybe 4 or 5 managers I have lost count) that have managed him he gets credit? Surely

It's a shame Spence got that injury as he would have been used a fair bit during these past couple of months, alas that's just the way it's gone for us of late. Hopefully Udogie is still fit as Ange suggested, then Spence could get plenty of game time covering both FBs as tactics/injuries dictate....

 

[Grays_1890]

It's a shame Spence got that injury as he would have been used a fair bit during these past couple of months, alas that's just the way it's gone for us of late. Hopefully Udogie is still fit as Ange suggested, then Spence could get plenty of game time covering both FBs as tactics/injuries dictate....

Yeh I think the whole treatment of Spence narrative is ignoring his injuries and however its gone his performance last night and against Coventry means its working because both were great IMO. I like to think we will see alot more of him now

 

[Raziel]

As I have said before.

It's amazing how the like of Brighton et al, play their youngsters and we all start wishing we have players like that... Well we do and we are scared to play them.

But they are not ready, we hear people say... Well, neither are the so called starting 11, who have been absolutely brick most of the time.

All I ever hear are excuses why we shouldn't play them.

Yeah, Gray has been played... In every position but the one he actually plays in... As I said, we are playing Gray as a CB... Why loan out Philips? Surely Philips would get loads of play time in Europe and the Cups, alongside Drag's, rotating with Romero and VDV.... Would be better for us as our 4th choice CB will actually be getting game time with the actually team he was supposed to be playing with.

Sorry, it's appauling how we under use players.

The comparison to Brighton is nonsense, the reason they can play new players of all kinds is their results do not matter, the only goal of Brighton every season is survival, and in 10 years (if they are still in the PL), it will still be that. It's why people badly misjudged Potter's level, he could lose 4 in a row including a tonking at Brighton and people would only remember the highlights of the season.

Udogie and Sarr were played at 20, Gray is being played, Bergvall has been played, Moore has been played (and would have got more time), We had 4 teenagers on the pitch yesterday, no one else in the PL has done that this season.

The issue isn't do they get played, it's the when/rotation, Spence really is hard to understand (even with his issues), believing Reguilon is so bad we prefer to run Udogie into ground? Gray/Bergvall/others not getting some time in their natural positions even as just rotation cover is hard to understand.

 

[Grays_1890]

The comparison to Brighton is nonsense, the reason they can play new players of all kinds is their results do not matter, the only goal of Brighton every season is survival, and in 10 years (if they are still in the PL), it will still be that. It's why people badly misjudged Potter's level, he could lose 4 in a row including a tonking at Brighton and people would only remember the highlights of the season.

Udogie and Sarr were played at 20, Gray is being played, Bergvall has been played, Moore has been played (and would have got more time), We had 4 teenagers on the pitch yesterday, no one else in the PL has done that this season.

The issue isn't do they get played, it's the when/rotation, Spence really is hard to understand (even with his issues), believing Reguilon is so bad we prefer to run Udogie into ground? Gray/Bergvall/others not getting some time in their natural positions even as just rotation cover is hard to understand.

Exactly this, I think we need to do better in some instances with it but we do blood youth, but there is no way we should be reliant solely on youth as I have moaned on about the last week or so we should be aspiring for ready now players and a mix.

I am not belittling what Brighton do, they are probably best in class at what they do BUT their ambitions are different and pressures are also different. To give another example, there is no way Spurs fans get behind the first year Eze had to develop at Palace when he was finding his feet, its a different ballgame IMO and you see enough kneejerk reactions to players here to know the players would not get the same ride they get at the Palace and Brightons of this world

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Yeh I think the whole treatment of Spence narrative is ignoring his injuries and however its gone his performance last night and against Coventry means its working because both were great IMO. I like to think we will see alot more of him now

I dunno
Ange has played Gray over him everytime
That to me shows a priority or preference

 

[monkeybarry]

Has been

Bit harsh

 

[Grays_1890]

I dunno
Ange has played Gray over him everytime
That to me shows a priority or preference

Someone has to play though and we have paid 40m for a youngster, this thread is littered with "does not play youth" so damned if do, damned if don't. But considering he gave Spence his first start and also given the performance I think Ange has done ok with the whole Spence thing. People always magnify into every detail when a manager is under pressure IMO

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Bit harsh

Well if the flat cap and tweed fits…

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Someone has to play though and we have paid 40m for a youngster, this thread is littered with "does not play youth" so damned if do, damned if don't. But considering he gave Spence his first start and also given the performance I think Ange has done ok with the whole Spence thing. People always magnify into every detail when a manager is under pressure IMO

My issue isn’t playing the youth per se
More his lack of rotation of available players to keep players fresh

 

[Grays_1890]

My issue isn’t playing the youth per se
More his lack of rotation of available players to keep players fresh

Yeh wasn't aimed at you mate just an overall comment. I agree he could have done better with that, but that said I also think there have been some that have not taken their chances and has forced hands at times, not saying Spence but in general when it comes to form and reliability. Thats why I think we are desperate for some established heads in there to balance it all off, including have the right number of balance between established or kids, at the moment its all or nothing

 

[tommysvr]

Same goes for Postecoglou: he's got a long career in football. So what? With that line of thinking, you can't comment on anything except maybe your job (assuming you're good at it) and a couple of topics you know a few things about.

This is the same old tired line that gets thrown out whenever there’s a critical reply to someone else. It’s so lazy.

You can of course comment and speculate on why Spence doesn’t play. But to say the coach is not a good judge of talent because they haven’t played someone before and he suddenly had a good 70 mins against the worst team in the league? It’s laughable.

 

[tommysvr]

The comparison to Brighton is nonsense, the reason they can play new players of all kinds is their results do not matter, the only goal of Brighton every season is survival, and in 10 years (if they are still in the PL), it will still be that. It's why people badly misjudged Potter's level, he could lose 4 in a row including a tonking at Brighton and people would only remember the highlights of the season.

Udogie and Sarr were played at 20, Gray is being played, Bergvall has been played, Moore has been played (and would have got more time), We had 4 teenagers on the pitch yesterday, no one else in the PL has done that this season.

The issue isn't do they get played, it's the when/rotation, Spence really is hard to understand (even with his issues), believing Reguilon is so bad we prefer to run Udogie into ground? Gray/Bergvall/others not getting some time in their natural positions even as just rotation cover is hard to understand.

Exactly why the clamour for Iraola is nonsense. He looks a very promising manager, has done a great job and if he ends up at Spurs in the future it seems exciting. But the pressure at Bournemouth is far from what it is at Tottenham and he’s not been there for very long. Sack Ange for him? In 18 months when Iraola goes through a similar rough patch the same people would want him gone too.

 

[Mikey10]

Exactly why the clamour for Iraola is nonsense. He looks a very promising manager, has done a great job and if he ends up at Spurs in the future it seems exciting. But the pressure at Bournemouth is far from what it is at Tottenham and he’s not been there for very long. Sack Ange for him? In 18 months when Iraola goes through a similar rough patch the same people would want him gone too.

I wouldn’t sack Ange for Iraola. Doesn’t really look certain enough as an upgrade to me.

 

[Kompakted]

I wouldn’t sack Ange for Iraola. Doesn’t really look certain enough as an upgrade to me.

Yeah not kean on someone that's potentially a flash in a pan. Look at Potter. Was everyone's choice to be manager of their club, got the Chelsea gig and promptly destroyed his managerial career. Its a huge step up in pressure and scrutiny from Brighton to Chelsea. Typical Brighton player will be happy to do as they're told. Potter went into Chelsea and immediately the first problem you've got is situations like him telling Kai Havertz and Tiago Silva how he wants them to play football and them being like "who the f*** are you?" And that's a massive hurdle on day one of the job....was one of the reasons I thought Postecoglu was a huge gamble too. He's never managed players at this level.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Yeah not kean on someone that's potentially a flash in a pan. Look at Potter. Was everyone's choice to be manager of their club, got the Chelsea gig and promptly destroyed his managerial career. Its a huge step up in pressure and scrutiny from Brighton to Chelsea. Typical Brighton player will be happy to do as they're told. Potter went into Chelsea and immediately the first problem you've got is situations like him telling Kai Havertz and Tiago Silva how he wants them to play football and them being like "who the f*** are you?" And that's a massive hurdle on day one of the job....was one of the reasons I thought Postecoglu was a huge gamble too. He's never managed players at this level.

Potter is IMO a great coach. Tactically adept and versatile to get what he can out of the players
Chelsea were and possibly still are a basket case
Potter did turn down even talking with us in the past
If people are turning down the potential of someone like Iraola then Im stumped as to who people think would work

 

[tommysvr]

I wouldn’t sack Ange for Iraola. Doesn’t really look certain enough as an upgrade to me.

I mention him because he was the pick last week after the Chelsea match. No doubt there’s a different pick every other day. Comes with the territory for those who are constantly wanting to change the manager.