Ange in or out?

[Finney Is Back]

Yeah I posted previously that the stats were shown to highlight how unwilling to change Ange is. Liverpool’s 3rd goal last night was eerily similar to some of the goals we conceded in the Saudi Sportswashing Machine 4-0 defeat last season, one long ball over the top and teams are clean through on our goal, he won’t change.

Don’t think it was a long ball over the top. It was a ball played up near the half way line and a flicked on header won by a player that shouldn’t have been winning that.

 

[Jurgen the German]

OK. But tell me this. Are there facts in there? Did Liverpool rotate 8 players from midweek? I'll add our injuries. Are our injuries a fact? You can only offer me a hypothesis on why we've faced more shots than any other team?

Yes it’s a fact that Liverpool rotated in midweek but why does that stop Ange being more cautious and pragmatic? Especially when we have injuries in key defensive positions, he doesn’t alter the tactics at all. Complaining about injuries but defending him for sticking to his principles is really making my case for me that he’s mad for not changing how we play.

 

[Mrs Vert]

They're not the difficult decisions. Same as with Forster.

Biss/Bents are the tough calls.

You would think! But I feel our board think otherwise

 

[Bedfordspurs]

You have more confidence than me.

Come on
You can see we’re spending money
You get that
You just have your historical knowledge to play against it.
Is it enough… we will see of course
But we are spending the money the club brings in.
You and I had been many discussions on this in the past and we agreed football club should lose money as it means it’s invested all the ££
We are doing that now and have been for the last 2/3 years
It has to continue though

 

[DeanoAustin]

I actually am still Ange in funnily enough as I think the problems at this club run deeper than him. But his post-match comments make him look like a clown and I would like to see that he gets it’s an issue that we are so open even if he can’t fix it, but he doesn’t seem to think it’s a problem I.e. I’m not trying to win 1-0 and I just want to entertain.

I do think he’s being unfair almost in the press conferences by saying “I’m not answering these questions any more. We’re gonna keep playing like we play.”

It’s legitimate to be asked about your style when you concede, 4, 3 and 6 at home even with injuries. All that said, the media thing is a game and it’s not like they are looking to portray a balanced truth. Fergie treated the press with contempt and I get the sense that you have to be a bit of a clam to manage them.

 

[glorygloryeze]

I do think he’s being unfair almost in the press conferences by saying “I’m not answering these questions any more. We’re gonna keep playing like we play.”

It’s legitimate to be asked about your style when you concede, 4, 3 and 6 at home even with injuries. All that said, the media thing is a game and it’s not like they are looking to portray a balanced truth. Fergie treated the press with contempt and I get the sense that you have to be a bit of a clam to manage them.

Press were lauding him previously and lapping up all his statements etc. Press ask more challenging/uncomfortable questions when a manager's team loses constantly, especially due to the same reasons/faults. It comes with the territory.

The fact he is saying he won't answer any more of certain types of questions is more a reflection on him...and not a great one imo

 

[Jurgen the German]

Don’t think it was a long ball over the top. It was a ball played up near the half way line and a flicked on header won by a player that shouldn’t have been winning that.

Two things, why is Spence bombing forward in that situation? Why was Dragusin so high up the pitch ?

 

[Daisuk]

We maybe the seventh richest club in the world, but the gulf between us and the five is enormous.
City, Chelsea, Real, bayern and utd can all blow us out the water when it comes to transfers.

I don't know about the situation with Real or Bayern, whether they need to adhere to any ffp rules over there (but I guess they do). Huge clubs obviously, so they probably earn significantly more than us. City, if treated fairly, should be penalised to the moon and back for their breach, surely they cant afford to overstep the rules anymore - and with a team in decline they'll need to sell their most expensive assets to try to survive. If they are treated by the FA as they should be. Chelsea have spread out contracts over up to eight years, also beyond the current rules, and would need to sell those guys for a relatively good sum within that period to stay within the rules a few more years down the line. Not very sustainable. United, sure, but their recruitment team hasn't exactly been shining of late.

So we should be in a relatively good situation, no?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I don't know about the situation with Real or Bayern, whether they need to adhere to any ffp rules over there (but I guess they do). Huge clubs obviously, so they probably earn significantly more than us. City, if treated fairly, should be penalised to the moon and back for their breach, surely they cant afford to overstep the rules anymore - and with a team in decline they'll need to sell their most expensive assets to try to survive. If they are treated by the FA as they should be. Chelsea have spread out contracts over up to eight years, also beyond the current rules, and would need to sell those guys for a relatively good sum within that period to stay within the rules a few more years down the line. Not very sustainable. United, sure, but their recruitment team hasn't exactly been shining of late.

So we should be in a relatively good situation, no?

Your assuming logic and rules apply but they rarely do with football and money

 

[Muttley]

You would think! But I feel our board think otherwise

But in defence of the board, replacing Forster, Davies, Sonny, Biss and Bents in the Jan and Summer windows with high quality players is going to be a stretch. That is 5 players that are very active in the squad. This is not a Reggie situation.

 

[glasgowspur]

I don't know how "good" they are, but i do know they've never experienced the kind of pressures we are under now and they're also coaching players of the quality and background they've never coached before.

The thing about some people on here saying that celtic fans watching us have said "this isn't Ange-ball" is that as someone senior in my own professional that sees good and bad examples of culture and line management, what I tend to find is that when you overpromote an inexperienced person to manage a team of experienced, professional SME's what tends to happen is that they'll be professional and pretend subconsciously or consciously to take things in, in terms of how that manager wants things to be done, but they then tend to just go off and do their own thing. Then the manager starts to get frustrated with them and complains that they're being unprofessional and conflict begins.

I don't know if that's why we seeing what we are seeing or whether that applies in professional football. I suspect it does. I'm imagining a situation where Nick Montgomery (previously of Hibs in the SPL) tells Bentancur and Romero what to do and they will probably be professional and will probably take it in to an extent but if it clashes with what they've previously been told is best practice at clubs like Juventus then there's going to be a conflict in their head and naturally they'll probably regard what they've been told at Juventus by someone with 20-30 years coaching at elite level as superior.

I feel like that's why we see players like Romero make so many moves that don't make sense in the situations and team structure that we have, it's him subconsciously at least seeing a deteriorating game situation and thinking *f**k it* and taking matters into his own hands, whether that's stepping in to cover what he perceives to be an unacceptable gap that maybe the coaching staff have instructed the team to leave, which then leaves his man unmarked at the far post....or whatever. It does strike me that the players that look least comfortable in this system are the more experienced players: Son, Romero, Bissouma and Maddison in particular have been very inconsistent since Ange came in, in these tactics and they often seem caught in two-minds and consistently make poor situational choices that they don't make on international duty or when they played for their previous clubs.

Ultimately the questions everyone in this thread need to ask themselves is:

1) Do you have ambitions to see THFC compete in the top 4 and for silverware?
2) Do you think Emirates Marketing Project, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, Man United, Bayern Munich, Borussia Dortmund, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Athletico Madrid, Valencia, Juventus, AC Milan, Inter or Napoli would have hired Ange Postecoglu and all of these coaches?
3) Even if they had (Valencia hired Gary Neville FFS) do you think 18 months in, in our current situation, they'd tolerate this and trust the process?

I can tell you that the answer to 2) and 3) is "no the f*** they wouldn't"

Point 2, no they wouldn't because they are not us and have a much larger better quality of a pool to choose from.
Could you see a prime Jose, pep, ancelotti or klopp coming to us?

 

[Legohamster]

But in defence of the board, replacing Forster, Davies, Sonny, Biss and Bents in the Jan and Summer windows with high quality players is going to be a stretch. That is 5 players that are very active in the squad. This is not a Reggie situation.

I would like to think Phillips/Dorrington would step up and take Davies place.

Do we have any keepers that can be given a chance as number 2? Keeley is getting good reviews, League 1 massive step up of course, but less so as a back up.

That would make it less tricky, even as a short term fix

 

[Daisuk]

Your assuming logic and rules apply but they rarely do with football and money

I know you're right, but the breach is there for everyone to see, you don't need to be an economical rocket scientist to see it. Even I do! And I can't even calculate my shopping cart when buying groceries. There's a three man independent panel going over things - how could they not convict City? They would look like absolute fools and would lose all credibility in what they do. It would be obvious corruption. They simply have to be convicted, or we might as well just drop this ffp thing.

 

[Mikey10]

Yeah I posted previously that the stats were shown to highlight how unwilling to change Ange is. Liverpool’s 3rd goal last night was eerily similar to some of the goals we conceded in the Saudi Sportswashing Machine 4-0 defeat last season, one long ball over the top and teams are clean through on our goal, he won’t change.

And that is the absolute crux of the issue for me.

He has said he won’t change; Salah said in his post-match interview last night (with a mischievous smile) that Liverpool knew exactly how we would play; we know how we are going to play, no matter who the opposition, the extent of our injuries, or the stage of any particular game; a team due to play us in February or May know how we are going to play.

A manager needs to manage different situations and circumstances (the clue is in the name), not just repeat the same actions, especially when they have been shown not to be particularly successful.

 

[glasgowspur]

I don't know about the situation with Real or Bayern, whether they need to adhere to any ffp rules over there (but I guess they do). Huge clubs obviously, so they probably earn significantly more than us. City, if treated fairly, should be penalised to the moon and back for their breach, surely they cant afford to overstep the rules anymore - and with a team in decline they'll need to sell their most expensive assets to try to survive. If they are treated by the FA as they should be. Chelsea have spread out contracts over up to eight years, also beyond the current rules, and would need to sell those guys for a relatively good sum within that period to stay within the rules a few more years down the line. Not very sustainable. United, sure, but their recruitment team hasn't exactly been shining of late.

So we should be in a relatively good situation, no?

We, as in the club, keep pinning our hopes on the playing ground leveling out, laudable, but I'm a flawed theory.
Clubs like city, Chelsea and utd will always find ways to get around these rules.
The British pat themselves on the back, fair play my lad, don't be like Johnny foreigners with your cheating and bribery.
Well at least in other countries they get caught and punished, anyone really believe city or Chelsea will get the same treatment as say juve?
I certainly don't.
So no, relatively speaking I don't think we are in a good situation.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I know you're right, but the breach is there for everyone to see, you don't need to be an economical rocket scientist to see it. Even I do! And I can't even calculate my shopping cart when buying groceries. There's a three man independent panel going over things - how could they not convict City? They would look like absolute fools and would lose all credibility in what they do. It would be obvious corruption. They simply have to be convicted, or we might as well just drop this ffp thing.

I’ve seen so many things in the wash football is run and money talks so nothing would shock me
Wouldn’t be shocked at a 100 point deduction
Wouldn’t be shocked at a £100m fine that’s paid outside of PSR
Anything could happen

 

[glasgowspur]

And that is the absolute crux of the issue for me.

He has said he won’t change; Salah said in his post-match interview last night (with a mischievous smile) that Liverpool knew exactly how we would play; we know how we are going to play, no matter who the opposition, the extent of our injuries, or the stage of any particular game; a team due to play us in February or May know how we are going to play.

A manager needs to manage different situations and circumstances (the clue is in the name), not just repeat the same actions, especially when they have been shown not to be particularly successful.

They knew exactly how we will play and still conceded three goals. With the "imperious" vvd and a settled back line.
Just for context, more Salah has more PL goals than our two cbs and lb had PL appearances, combined.
It's even possible that he has more PL goals than gray or spence has PL minutes.

 

[Jurgen the German]

They knew exactly how we will play and still conceded three goals. With the "imperious" vvd and a settled back line.
Just for context, more Salah has more PL goals than our two cbs and lb had PL appearances, combined.
It's even possible that he has more PL goals than gray or spence has PL minutes.

Well it was 5–1 and the game was done and dusted. Possibly they switched off and got complacent. The difference is Slot was annoyed they conceded 3 goals despite winning the game and going 6 pts clear whereas Ange would laugh it off and say he loved it. The scoreline was flattering for us just like the Chelsea 4-3 was to us.

 

[Mikey10]

We, as in the club, keep pinning our hopes on the playing ground leveling out, laudable, but I'm a flawed theory.
Clubs like city, Chelsea and utd will always find ways to get around these rules.
The British pat themselves on the back, fair play my lad, don't be like Johnny foreigners with your cheating and bribery.
Well at least in other countries they get caught and punished, anyone really believe city or Chelsea will get the same treatment as say juve?
I certainly don't.
So no, relatively speaking I don't think we are in a good situation.

Exactly this. We are naive on the field and naive off the field.

They knew exactly how we will play and still conceded three goals. With the "imperious" vvd and a settled back line.
Just for context, more Salah has more PL goals than our two cbs and lb had PL appearances, combined.
It's even possible that he has more PL goals than gray or spence has PL minutes.

L iverpool took their foot off the pedal for 10 minutes and were looking to conserve energy, having established a healthy lead (imagine that as an in-game concept!). Once we got a couple back they put their foot back down, aware of the fact that they could essentially score at will.

 

[Kompakted]

Point 2, no they wouldn't because they are not us and have a much larger better quality of a pool to choose from.
Could you see a prime Jose, pep, ancelotti or klopp coming to us?

I doubt any of those in their "prime" would have gone to some of the clubs on that list either. I.e. Mourinho wouldn't have left peak Chelsea to go to Liverpool, Dortmund or Athletico, it was probably Real Madrid, Man United, Juve or Barca at that point for him.

That doesn't mean we have to take a punt on someone like Postecoglu. Again, it feels like Levy just lurches from "guaranteed trophy" managers didn't work out, so I'll try and be clever again" when reality is Mourinho and Conte were always a poor fit for the culture and ethos of the club. That's not just "style of football" BTW, that's the fact that they work with clubs that sound ridiculous sums on 27/28 peak elite players that suit their systems whereas under Levy we will never operate like that.

We should be in the tier of Dortmund, Athletico where we sign and develop elite youth and accept there's a bit of a conveyor belt to the top tier clubs like Real Madrid. We got there when we were consistently selling players like Berbatov, Carrick, Modric, Bale for obscene amounts and reinvesting and finishing top 6 on a consistent basis.

We've allowed the wheels to come off that model and while the transfer strategy in recent seasons under Paratici and hopefully continued under the current regime has picked back up making some very positive strategic investments in the likes of Kulu, Udogie, VDV, Sarr, Bergvall, Gray etc, I really think that Postecoglu was a massive punt. Now there may be an element that we do take the brightest up and coming coaches from the SPL, Dutch and Portuguese leagues. But Postecoglu was not some young up and coming coach that was bursting onto the scene and winning domestically and in Europe and turning heads.

He has been around for ages and didn't get the breakthrough. And his celtic team struggled in Europe. Maybe that was the red flag that he maybe couldn't adjust his system when facing increasingly difficult challenges. but would just keep plugging away regardless. I spoke to a celtic fan at my work multi-site Xmas get together and they said first half in the home game against Real Madrid, celtic absolutely rattled them, but after half time Real had clearly worked it out and then came out and ticked their belly. That might seem very familiar to watchers here such as the Brighton away game and other games where we've started like a train then been rapidly worked out and picked off.

Maybe I'm being unfair but ....I don't think I am.

Ange reminds me of one of those boxers that get so far up the ladder by being really aggressive and in your face and being able to hit hard....then they come up against a really elite opponent that keeps their distance with neat footwork, let them exhaust themselves in the first few rounds and then batter them. Ricky Hatton's fight with Floyd Mayweather was a case in point. Hatton had worked his way up the tough way but I'm sorry his face was already battered by the time he worked his way up to his first title fight and nobody gets to elite boxing by allowing their face to be pummeled and just "having a strong jaw and taking it". Needless to say Hatton came out fighting landed a couple of blows but got comprehensively battered in the end.

That's Ange all over, we are going in to elite fights running at our opponents with our arms whirling and our jaw exposed....sometimes it works, but often we get knocked out fairly easily.