Ange in or out?

[thfcsteff]

For context's sake I have faced abuse many times both for being of south Asian heritage and as a policeman. Sometimes for both. And remained professional and calm. So please don't patronise me about how thick or thin my skin is as you have no idea.

Edit I just want to add, one video showed a supporter shouting at Ange "You're f ING taking us down Ange.* That's not even abusive and he still reacted. That shows someone with wrong temperament to be a football manager.

We have known each other far too long for this to be discussed any further publicly. I'll send you a PM, but for public record here, the comment was not in sense designed to assert some sort 'superiority[, it was a genuine reference to the fact it appeared to me you were judging his reaction based on one or two video clips versus months of incessant and relentless online and in-person abuse. Anyhow, if you're interested, there's a PM for you.

 

[thfcsteff]

With that all said....I'm now going to put myself in Daniel Levy's shoes.

Same rules apply. However, no two pairs of shoes are the same. I'd suggest that Levy and Postecoglu are different types of person. I think Levy finds it easier to ignore/brush off the abuse, albeit I think it is equally disgraceful to shout that in person.

 

[thfcsteff]

Not the way a lot of us travelling fans saw it actually. I went to Moscow. We were sick of Southgate not being able to put a decent back four together so he used his comfort blanket of a fifth defender. That all started way before the world cup. He then put a right-footed wing back in Ashley Young. Worse still, he then allowed Maguire to constantly pull Young into the middle and mark whilst making himself a free man (along with Stones). Poor old Dele, Hendo and Lingard had to chase shadows like crazy because of the stupid tactics. Of course, Modric spotted the issue and they cleaned up down our left in the second half of the Croatia match. It was overload city.

Dele, Lingard and Hendo were magnificent in the semi-final. So was Sterling to be fair who could have 2 or 3 of them booked in the Croatia first half by his direct running. Kane had a decent game as well. A proper ref on that pitch and we win that game, even though we weren't up to much in the latter stages.

Dele was a very versatile player. I remember his performance at 6 against Dortmund. Poch had clearly seen the absences happening and got Dele into a headspace where he was fantastic ahead of Jan and Toby.

I 'think' we're saying similar things re: Dele i.e. his natural position was compromised by Southgate during thst World Cup, that he played very well despite that yet received stick from people who did not understand how he wss being used? I think it's pretty clear that Southgate wanted Linguard, Kane, Sterling and Dele on the pitchm and the only way he could do it was by 'workhorsing' Dele out of his natural and best position.

 

[thfcsteff]

Alli was starting to go backwards for a number of years even before Jose took over. Even if his “tough love” approach made things worse, he should have been dropped ages before. I’m still amazed that Lucas Moura didn’t start the CL final given the hot streak he was on and Alli started when he was largely ineffective in terms of being a goal threat for a number of months. I don’t blame poch at all for starting Kane despite not being fit. He was damned whether he started him or not, but no excuse for not starting Moura in that game. And he didn’t even tell him tell him he was dropped according to Moura himself.

You do remember that withut Dele Alli on the pitch in Amsterdam, Moura doesn't get the chance to score two of those goals?

 

[Jurgen the German]

You do remember that withut Dele Alli on the pitch in Amsterdam, Moura doesn't get the chance to score two of those goals?

I’m aware of that yes. I still don’t think his contribution merited starting every single game when his overall play hadn’t improved and the goals dried up for a number of months/years, Poch never dropped him from memory. If Poch was picking the starting eleven for that final on merit then Moura would have started and not Alli in my opinion.

 

[billyiddo]

I’m aware of that yes. I still don’t think his contribution merited starting every single game when his overall play hadn’t improved and the goals dried up for a number of months/years, Poch never dropped him from memory. If Poch was picking the starting eleven for that final on merit then Moura would have started and not Alli in my opinion.

Moura and Dele were not competing for the same position in the team.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Moura and Dele were not competing for the same position in the team.

Moura played a number of positions for us in his time here including striker and winger. I’m sure he could have added value playing in Ali’s position who was becoming more and more ineffective with each passing season. Ironically he picked up briefly when Jose first took over whereas the original poster claimed Jose essentially ruined him but he was already in decline well before Jose. And I’m not even a Jose fan btw.

 

[billyiddo]

Moura played a number of positions for us in his time here including striker and winger. I’m sure he could have added value playing in Ali’s position who was becoming more and more ineffective with each passing season. Ironically he picked up briefly when Jose first took over whereas the original poster claimed Jose essentially ruined him but he was already in decline well before Jose. And I’m not even a Jose fan btw.

By this point we were playing a central midfield of Winks & Sissoko and Dele was playing with more responsibilities deeper than he was previously in his sort of second striker role, Moura whether out wide or through the middle was purely an attacking option so like I say not really in competition with Dele for a starting spot

 

[Jurgen the German]

By this point we were playing a central midfield of Winks & Sissoko and Dele was playing with more responsibilities deeper than he was previously in his sort of second striker role, Moura whether out wide or through the middle was purely an attacking option so like I say not really in competition with Dele for a starting spot

Well regardless, Alli wasn’t playing in any position to a particularly high standard and yet Poch stuck with him. He should have either been replaced or dropped at the very least long before Alli had his differences with Jose. Probably speaks to a wider issue of not strengthening the team enough as a whole during the later Poch years.

 

[billyiddo]

Well regardless, Alli wasn’t playing in any position to a particularly high standard and yet Poch stuck with him. He should have either been replaced or dropped at the very least long before Alli had his differences with Jose. Probably speaks to a wider issue of not strengthening the team enough as a whole during the later Poch years.

bingo

 

[Baleforce]

The bigger mistake was starting Kane when he wasn’t ready.

 

[Daveeeeeeeed]

The bigger mistake was starting Kane when he wasn’t ready.

But you play a half fit Kane over Ali, replacing him with Moura anyday. It's all if's and hypothetical but you never drop Moura after him getting you single handedly to the final. You find a way to get him and Kane in the starting 11.

 

[Bishop]

But you play a half fit Kane over Ali, replacing him with Moura anyday. It's all if's and hypothetical but you never drop Moura after him getting you single handedly to the final. You find a way to get him and Kane in the starting 11.

I wouldn't have started Kane. That was a mistake, he wasn't fit, didn't look fit and played like a man who just missed the last 3 months. Winning isn't about playing your best 11 players, it's about selecting the best options that fit together. An unfit Kane was just a waste of a starting position imo.

 

[Baleforce]

But you play a half fit Kane over Ali, replacing him with Moura anyday. It's all if's and hypothetical but you never drop Moura after him getting you single handedly to the final. You find a way to get him and Kane in the starting 11.

I wouldn’t have, I’d have started Alli and Moura.

 

[Jurgen the German]

The bigger mistake was starting Kane when he wasn’t ready.

I’m not disagreeing but can you imagine the grief Poch would have got if he had not started Kane when he was available and we ended up losing the game? I definitely understand the argument for not starting him but I think Poch was in a lose lose situation re Kane.

 

[harr1984]

I’m not disagreeing but can you imagine the grief Poch would have got if he had not started Kane when he was available and we ended up losing the game? I definitely understand the argument for not starting him but I think Poch was in a lose lose situation re Kane.

A manager who worries about criticism he would get for selections isn't a very good manager, top managers make tough decisions all the time and get flack for it but on many occassions are proven right. If Kane was on the bench and we were losing, he would have been thrown on at some point anyway and everyone would have seen how unfit he was. He shouldn't have been picked for that final, he was so far off being fit and it wasn't just a little bit of rustiness......

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

The revisionism on Kane is astonishing, a player who continually carried this team is now seen as a major factor in us never winning anything. I sometimes think we deserve players like Andy Booth.

 

[fernadez]

The revisionism on Kane is astonishing, a player who continually carried this team is now seen as a major factor in us never winning anything. I sometimes think we deserve players like Andy Booth.

I don't think that's revisionism to say that Kane isn't a player that comes back from injury and hits the ground running.

How are people meant to discuss anything if when they do they are told they deserve Andy Booth's and it's infered that they are supporting their team the wrong way?

 

[billyiddo]

I don't think that's revisionism to say that Kane isn't a player that comes back from injury and hits the ground running.

How are people meant to discuss anything if when they do they are told they deserve Andy Booth's and it's infered that they are supporting their team the wrong way?

There's a poster on here that worked this out and it showed he actually had a really good goalscoring record in games directly after returning from injury

 

[Jurgen the German]

The revisionism on Kane is astonishing, a player who continually carried this team is now seen as a major factor in us never winning anything. I sometimes think we deserve players like Andy Booth.

Kane has a phenomenal record but his performances and statistics in finals for Spurs and England have been well short of what is expected of him. The CL final aside. He was a passenger in the latter stages of the euros last summer. Didn’t look great that his replacement in the semi final Ollie Watkins came on and made an immediate impact by scoring a great goal to win the game. Some players just don’t rise to the occasion in the big games. Mo Salah is another great example. Scored in 1 final for Liverpool, even that was a dodgy penalty. Thierry Henry never scored in a final in his career.