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Finney Is Back said:
Isn’t just about every discussion on here? They’re all just expressions of people’s opinions aren’t they? e.g. I might think Tel was our best starting player on Saturday, whereas somebody else might think it was Gray. We’ll both think we’re right and the other is wrong, is that not the nature of opinions?
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No, not all discussions on opinions end the same. You have an opinion, the other person has an opinion...and with good debate, structured points and evidence..one person can convince the other person they are right or at least shift their own, or others, view to some degree.

It's no different than the age old practice of debating societies.

But in this case, the debate is futile (as has repeatedly tried to be communicated) as all sides of this particular debate would have great evidence to support their side, effectively making it impossible to agree one opinion is more convincing than the other.

I've wasted enough time trying to clarify the same thing...and I feel you're just being obtuse.
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
No, not all discussions on opinions end the same. You have an opinion, the other person has an opinion...and with good debate, structured points and evidence..one person can convince the other person they are right or at least shift their own, or others, view to some degree.

It's no different than the age old practice of debating societies.

But in this case, the debate is futile (as has repeatedly tried to be communicated) as all sides of this particular debate would have great evidence to support their side, effectively making it impossible to agree one opinion is more convincing than the other.

I've wasted enough time trying to clarify the same thing...and I feel you're just being obtuse.
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If we go back to where this started, I posted the following opinion (that I think is a reasonable one even if you disagree with it):

I’d argue that this is less of a gamble, signing players who have already proven they can cope with PL football.

You then jumped straight in with: “Just to continue your silly game......Johnson, Richie, Solanke”.

That was probably the most obtuse post in the thread wouldn’t you agree? Would you behave like that in a normal face to face conversation?
 
MartyFunkhouser said:
The only currency is trophies till its not......
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Context does matter. A win is a win especially if an actual trophy but c'mon it was a win of a now significantly diminished competition on the back of an abysmal season while our structure was collapsing around us and winning the EL didn't fix any of that.

Trophies especially the big ones and particularly the long run ones such as a league campaign and the CL because of it's semi league format are typically a reflection of the quality of the team. The EL was not that, despite being fudging brick we were still one of the top 5 teams in the competition. It doesn't matter we won yes, but that was not a glorious triumph in the grand scheme of things.

I'm a league win first guy because if we win that you can't tell me brick. I don't care about context because 38 games is all the context I need, it covers all eventualities and answers all questions. But cups even the CL are more about the on the day performance and for me and I accept most people don't see it this way a cup doesn't reflect on your quality it reflects on the draw you've faced and when you've faced them and how you performed on the day. That's why we often have giant killings and cup upsets even in the CL whereas that doesn't happen with league wins.
 
Bishop said:
Context does matter. A win is a win especially if an actual trophy but c'mon it was a win of a now significantly diminished competition on the back of an abysmal season while our structure was collapsing around us and winning the EL didn't fix any of that.

Trophies especially the big ones and particularly the long run ones such as a league campaign and the CL because of it's semi league format are typically a reflection of the quality of the team. The EL was not that, despite being fudging brick we were still one of the top 5 teams in the competition. It doesn't matter we won yes, but that was not a glorious triumph in the grand scheme of things.

I'm a league win first guy because if we win that you can't tell me brick. I don't care about context because 38 games is all the context I need, it covers all eventualities and answers all questions. But cups even the CL are more about the on the day performance and for me and I accept most people don't see it this way a cup doesn't reflect on your quality it reflects on the draw you've faced and when you've faced them and how you performed on the day. That's why we often have giant killings and cup upsets even in the CL whereas that doesn't happen with league wins.
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On the first part I agree in part, but ultimately it delivered a historic night that no one put an asterisk next too, my celebrations were not muted by the league form or diminished quality of the cup.

On the last parts.I agree with large parts but thats why for years I argued the progressing made, which in fairness Dl made from a much different financial footing than he left for the Lewis family.

We went from "a cup run would be nice" to top 4 almost being a set in stone expectation.
 
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MartyFunkhouser said:
I agree, but winning a major European trophy as a consolation is hardly the disaster being made out.
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But I think the actual conversation was about whether Levy was running the club well in his last 5 or 6 years. I think we all know that trophy could have landed anywhere on the journey, as it nearly did a few times. Fortunately, this time it did as 2008 was feeling like a very long time ago.

I still question Levy for the post Covid years and am not surprised in any way that he fell on his sword for his performance in role.
 
Muttley said:
But I think the actual conversation was about whether Levy was running the club well in his last 5 or 6 years. I think we all know that trophy could have landed anywhere on the journey, as it nearly did a few times. Fortunately, this time it did as 2008 was feeling like a very long time ago.

I still question Levy for the post Covid years and am not surprised in any way that he fell on his sword for his performance in role.
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Yes and again I think it was the right time for him to go. But taking moments of isolation out of his time....was DL a force for good and are we a better football club in its entirety for his time here. I think absolutely yes.

Anyway with a day of meetings in town I need to get my move on
 
billyiddo said:
We've currently got 2 concurrent conversations re Levys time at the club - one where league position + a European trophy is used to highlight that we were poor and another where the lack of trophies are held up, despite good league performances, to show we were poor. 😂
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I don’t think those are contradictory arguments at all. They’re actually two sides of the same point: the issue is the lack of consistency and sustained success across Levy’s tenure.

There were periods where the league performances were good but we didn’t win trophies. There were also periods where we won a European trophy but the league performance was nowhere near good enough. And then, ultimately, we’ve ended up with seasons like finishing 17th, which is clearly unacceptable.

The point isn’t that one specific metric proves Levy’s tenure was poor. It’s that, over the last 6–7 years in particular, we haven’t consistently delivered either of the things that should matter most: competing at the top end of the league and winning trophies.

I’ve never argued that Levy did nothing good. I’ve consistently acknowledged the huge commercial growth, the stadium, the infrastructure and the progress made earlier in his tenure. But those achievements don’t mean we should ignore the footballing shortcomings of the latter part of his time at the club.

Equally, I’m not saying that a season with a good league finish but no trophy is automatically a failure. Nor am I saying winning a European trophy somehow means the league position doesn't matter. Both matter. The ambition should be to do what Villa have shown is possible: compete strongly in the league and win a major trophy in the same season.

So there aren't “two concurrent conversations” that contradict each other. There’s one consistent standard: Spurs should be consistently competing near the top of the league and winning trophies. We haven't done that often enough, and the fact we've reached a point where finishing 17th is even part of the discussion demonstrates exactly why criticism of the latter part of Levy's tenure is justified.

At some point, the conversation has to move beyond infrastructure, revenue and potential and onto the pitch. we need to win things, compete consistently near the top of the league, and not be celebrating survival from seasons where we finished 17th. That’s not an unreasonable standard — it’s the minimum ambition I think a club of our stature should have.
 
Finney Is Back said:
If we go back to where this started, I posted the following opinion (that I think is a reasonable one even if you disagree with it):

I’d argue that this is less of a gamble, signing players who have already proven they can cope with PL football.

You then jumped straight in with: “Just to continue your silly game......Johnson, Richie, Solanke”.

That was probably the most obtuse post in the thread wouldn’t you agree? Would you behave like that in a normal face to face conversation?
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Is that your definition of obtuse?

Yes I would....we're talking about football you delicate flower.

But you miss the point (again).

I agree with your opinion.
I agree with all the opinions on the subject.
As evidence and examples can be presented that I couldn't disagree with.
Somewhat ironically I'm not looking to argue, the discussion is moot imho
 
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